Darkwraith/Darkmoon Lore

It's common knowledge now that the 'bad' guys, Kaathe, Darkwraiths in general, etc. are truly fighting on the side of Humans and Humanity, while Gwyn, Gwyndolin and Darkmoons are truly trying to destroy every last fragment of Humanity, thus keeping humans cursed and hollow.

And thus, it is commonly denoted that Darkwraiths and the Dark Lord ending are truly 'good' and Darkmoons and the Link the Fire ending are truly 'bad', at least in relation to Humanity. I, however, do not believe this to be true - I think it is almost a statement much larger than simply 'good' and 'evil'.

The Darkwraiths invade in order to collect and preserve Humanity - a noble cause of sorts. But what would happen if, say, every last Darkmoon was killed? Would Darkwraiths stop invading, satisfied that the destroyers of their precious Humanity are now defeated?

I say no. I say, that when there are no Darkmoons left, Darkwraiths would still invade, battling to the end for their precious shards of Humanity. So, it is my theory that Humanity is doomed eternally to war, never to find peace - when there are no enemies left, they will simply war with each other. It is their nature.

And that's it.

I think your point is illustrated in the fact that the Darkwraiths are indiscriminate on who they invade and who they take humanity from. They pillage their fellow man regardless of allegiance, whereas the Darkmoons only specifically target certain individuals. The "bad" ending stems from the game's assertion that humans are a pestilence, infected with a dark soul and incapable of sacrifice. That is why this game sits squarely in the Dark Fantasy genre, because in standard fantasy, humans are normally a race of redemption and promise.

One funny fact is that, ok, Darkwraiths fight for humanity, but for what reasson really? To feed Kathee with it? That doesn't seem to be preserving for me.
I like to think like Acidic_Cook said in another thread, that both primeval serpents are toying with us and that their real goal is hidden between lines.
There is no real good or evil, there is only this mixed up plot that is actaually the best way to manipulate people: with bafflement.
The point is, no matter if you are a darkmoon or a darkwraith, you are still a tool for a greater end that hasn't been completaly told or revealed to you.

Eh, I tend to believe Kaathe. Not because I think he's super trustworthy, but honestly because of the motion you perform while 'offering Humanity' - it's not like Souvenirs, or Sunlight Medals, or Eyes of Death - it's the same motion you go through when joining or abandoning a Covenant, which to me seems to imply something is happening within you as opposed to you offering it to somebody else. Just a theory, though, obviously there's no way to prove/disprove it.

And I don't know, Emergence. I concur with your first bit, but where does the game say that Humans are a pestilence/incapable of sacrifice? Even if it was said, I don't think it truly goes much deeper than than Gwyn fearing a 'Dark Lord' would rise amongst Humans and thus enslaving them such that they end up willingly parting with their souls.

Darkwraiths are like the League of Assassins/Shadows in Batman - they fight for Humanity, which considering the pseudo-Holocaust against them coming from Gwyn is a good thing. But they seek not only to 'save' Humanity, but preserve only those who deserve to be preserved. The 'good' outlook, i.e. Batman's, is not represented in the game.

On a meta level, it could also speak to gamers and their desire to keep fake killing each other. I mean, it's a tad convoluted considering killing is pretty much the only thing the game was designed to let you do...but thinking about it outside the scope of Dark Souls and in terms of nearly all console games with an online component, I could dig it.

I suppose for me it was just the impression I got. Humanity were the ones willing to let the world go dark. The sun and warmth are such strong symbols related to such strong archetypes, and allying these symbols with Gwyn from a storytelling perspective I think shifts the game's narrative bias in favor of these Gods.

They never did call them a pestilence but I look at it this way: Dark Lord, dark souls, willing to let the fire and light die, and the champions of humanity are wraith like creatures sprung from a dark abyss. Those are such strongly negative symbols, even it they are not inherently evil I would argue the motivation of humanity is solely ambition without any desire to create or establish an order. So in that sense they are a pestilence to the current state of the Dark Souls universe.

Ah, I never thought of it like that, actually. I always took it as a mere irony - that 'Dark' doesn't necessarily have to be Evil, nor 'Light' good.

Sort of like how Demon's Souls made the point that, despite to pretty much everybody's preconceived notions that Purity is a good thing, there's no reason that something pure couldn't just as easily be purely evil.

I'm not a big Fantasy guy, though, so I suppose I wouldn't read into it from that standpoint (I come to Demon's/Dark Souls via like D&D campaigns inspired by like Lock, Stock and Snatch and such, so Humans were definitely, well, simply human).

The ash maiden at Firelink says: "please save us all from this undead curse!" Rhea says the same. I believe that if you link the fire, Gwyndolin has won. He manipulated you to survive. If you became the Dark Lord. The gods die, but the undead curse is not gone. You will reign a undead land. Thats why I aways wanted a third ending. I know sound very stupid, but an ending that you just leave the kiln, and all undead are gone. So the humanity could re organize without monsters around. Re build all kingdoms like what they were before the undead outbreak. Everything goes back to normal, without Demons and without gods. Instead of a age of fire or age of dark, we would have a new age. Where the humans domain, like it aways has been

I shall post soon for you, Capril. I have things to say about the dark, and I won't say it here, nor on this device I write on. Here me out, thou, the the Dark Lord may not be the best plot to take.

I see. Thanks my friend. I still could not read everything you wrote. Need some more time, but so far you have been doing a great job.

PS: finally someone almost wrote my name right lol

Carphil wrote:The ash maiden at Firelink says: "please save us all from this undead curse!" Rhea says the same. I believe that if you link the fire, Gwyndolin has won. He manipulated you to survive. If you became the Dark Lord. The gods die, but the undead curse is not gone. You will reign a undead land. Thats why I aways wanted a third ending. I know sound very stupid, but an ending that you just leave the kiln, and all undead are gone. So the humanity could re organize without monsters around. Re build all kingdoms like what they were before the undead outbreak. Everything goes back to normal, without Demons and without gods. Instead of a age of fire or age of dark, we would have a new age. Where the humans domain, like it aways has been

You're generally correct, though I think that by not linking the Fire, you are, in fact, letting all Bonfires slowly burn out, thus effectively ending the curse - even if one was to somehow get cursed after the fact, they'd have no bonfire at which to destroy their own Humanity and no Bonfire at which to respawn when they die.

JohnnyHarpoon wrote:

Carphil wrote:The ash maiden at Firelink says: "please save us all from this undead curse!" Rhea says the same. I believe that if you link the fire, Gwyndolin has won. He manipulated you to survive. If you became the Dark Lord. The gods die, but the undead curse is not gone. You will reign a undead land. Thats why I aways wanted a third ending. I know sound very stupid, but an ending that you just leave the kiln, and all undead are gone. So the humanity could re organize without monsters around. Re build all kingdoms like what they were before the undead outbreak. Everything goes back to normal, without Demons and without gods. Instead of a age of fire or age of dark, we would have a new age. Where the humans domain, like it aways has been

You're generally correct, though I think that by not linking the Fire, you are, in fact, letting all Bonfires slowly burn out, thus effectively ending the curse - even if one was to somehow get cursed after the fact, they'd have no bonfire at which to destroy their own Humanity and no Bonfire at which to respawn when they die.

And I think that is the greatest achievement from From. If you notice, there is a lot of gaps left for interpretation, wich is great because then any theory cqn be heard and take in consideration.

That fact about the dark and light ending is to ambiguous.

Carphil is right about that it would be great if there was a 3rd ending. An ending that actually reveals the real plot behind the undead curse and the fight between dark and light.

Something that would show you that actually everyone was looking for power and wanted you to be their tool for success and you stood out for all mankind.

I don't know. Is just a thought.

Light and Dark ending? You are right, it seems injustice to choose both as separate entities, as both are dark causes in their own senses. To light a flame of conflict when no lore exists, or to help the serpents of glutton have a stronghold of the world as 'advisors', in which BOTH serpents serve, and more. Seems to ambiguious indeed to choose.

As for now, the developers have not left a third ending, and as far as we know it is true. However searches are made, discoveries have shown no third ending as for know. However it revealing the Truth would seem to be a sort of jab to the concept of this 'written' story. Although it would be rewarding, since the truth is always spread out and chopped into pieces in the world

As for the covenants and the player, the player is a chest piece for those of higher ordeal, true as it is. Anyone who uses the sorcery, flames, or miracles uses the power of these beings. the Flames being aligned with both existing Flames, sorceries being that to the followings of Seath, and the Miracles are the spells that sprout from the power of the Gods. The Covenants, by fault, all follow these beings as it were, following the ways of a group that is lead by a higher ordeal. What did the blacksmith in the broken church say?

"The nice thing about weapons... they never betray you. So pay a little respect, eh?"

in a world that includes gods, no mortal can be anything other than a pawn. i think the 'good' covenants are about haveing faith that the powers using you do so for good reasons where as for the 'bad' covenants faith isn't necessary, it pays well. not to say the true darkwraith believers arnt there or that all darkmoon blades are devout but that the fundemental difference in them is the type of people likely to join. who can say wether dark or light is good or bad or for whom they're good or bad, only that the light covenants have an emphasis on helping your fellow man and ending their tormente and the dark covenants encourage intentional harm to others in the pursuit of their goals. without knowing the truth behind their motives, its a personal choice. i'd probably say out of them all myself but i'd rather serve with the and virtuous serving a hidden agenda than the cutthroats serving a hidden agenda. if the gods decide we're all unfit i can only argue, if we let murderers rule weve proven were unfit anyways

There's a clear link here to the western Christian/Catholic perspective of good and evil also. These perspectives link God, heaven, or true good, with ideals like pure morality, denial of self indulging actions, constant repentance for sins, etc. While the concept of the devil, ie pure evil, is represented as being in support of base human desires, being sexual, animal needs, support of self indulgence, etc. I feel like even though the dark characters, like Kaathe and the Darkwraiths, are represented as trying to preserve humanity, they're also represented as being brutal, violent, and unarguably associated with darkness, meaning you could make the connection that these parts of humanity that they're trying to preserve are the same parts of humanity that Gwyn is attempting to purify (with fire hint, hint, wink, wink). While Gwyn and company are clearly associated with light, atonement, and purification, maybe ultimately purifying humanity of these things the dark characters want to keep around. It's not a difficult association to make and is clearly one recognized by people all over the world.

You could also make the connection that the two opposing guiding forces, Kaathe and Frampt, are both essentially the same thing, have the same origins. Kaathe, however, is clearly tainted, is represented as being red, living in total darkness (another direct reference: the abyss) and claims that Frampt is actually the tainted one. After describing it that way, who does this character remind you of?

After having said all of that I feel like I should clarify that I'm not a particularly religious person, nor am I preaching in any way. I just feel like being a relatively learned member of western society, its easy to make these connections.

hmm, I've been pondering this myself. I like to consider Gwyn as Zeus actually. Typically the top god of any ancient, poly theistic religion is the embodiment of the sun and like Gwyn, Zeus has a love of the lightning bolt.

Like Gwyn and his fellow lords, Zeus and his fellow gods brought down those who ruled before them, no doubt due to coveting that power. The titans fell, as did the dragons.

Like Gwyn, Zeus then had to concern himself with humanity, because it would be humanity that would decide the fate of the gods. In Greek Mythology, the gods were lessened over time because humanity eventually forgot them. Gwyn and his line fear humanity, fear the fable that one will challenge them all.

IN both sagas (see what I did there) the world is lessened each time, and can never be raised up again to what it was. The Titans create the world and time and etc, concepts never meant for the gods, and so it is for humanity.

IN Dark Souls The Age of Fire is a lessening of what had come before, and the Age of Man would be considered a lessening of that too.

Well that's just my thoughts at 2 in the morning lol.

Heh, nice to see the thread up and running.

Messiah is actually right on the money with the idea that the Gods need Humans, for if they are not worshiped then they do not technically exist. This is a good thread to weave into the potential lore behind Gwyn's implementation of the curse, etc. and refusal to relinquish the world to Humans.

To add to Plastic's talk of 'purification', I think it is actually quite interesting to note that one of the original definitions of the word 'Holocaust' is, quite simply, a sacrifice consumed by fire. So, it would seem that, even without referencing what went on during World War II, the Undead Curse is pretty literally an Humanity Holocaust. I suppose whether the Humanity is being 'purified' or destroyed is up to the kindler.

Also, while a point of the 'good' covenants is to help one another, keep in mind that in these covenants, especially Way of White, the Rite of Kindling is like the Holy Grail. Thus, despite the 'rewards of Humanity', members are encouraged to feed as much Humanity to bonfires as possible. Again, lore-wise, it is a matter of perspective/belief as to whether or not this feeding is good or bad.

Though it does also logistically make sense, if not only so you have lots of estus to heal your summoned phantoms.

Only by a modern interpretation of the word "god". Using your same logic the 'gods' are not gods at all for they neither created the world nor posess any form of localised or pervasive absolute power. And while they are age less they are, clearly, mortal so using your logic i call their status as gods into question. However, the way i see it is that they could obliterate any but the pc with hardly a thought so they (and you) are (at least for all intents and purposes) gods simply because none can oppose you if you wish them dead.

@ JohnnyHarpoon: Yeah that pretty much sums up how I see it. It's the Paradise Lost perspective, good and evil are in the eye of the beholder, and in DkS it's ultimately up to the kindler to decide which is the righteous course of action.

I definitely feel you could connect this to a lot of different real world philosophies. I can totally see the Greco/Roman connection too. That's one of the neat things about theological philosophies, IMO. There are so many intersecting/connecting lines between all of them, really has a way of stirring up some pretty intense questions doesn't it?

@ Forum Pirate: In game they don't ever refer to them as Gods do they? Aren't they just referred to as lords? While that's often synonymous with the term God in contexts like this I guess you're right that it doesn't necessarily mean that's what they are. At the same time the Greco/Roman God's didn't necessarily need either of those traits to be considered Gods. Also a lot of them, in the mythological narratives, were very mortal in the sense that they could be killed by mortals, or other Gods for that matter.