Dark Wood Grain Ring for PvP

You can fat roll through them. It's not the ring, it's the mechanic. It's the function of dodging. It wouldn't make any sense to have a dodge mechanic if you still took damage when you used it.

DamageCK wrote:You can fat roll through them. It's not the ring, it's the mechanic. It's the function of dodging. It wouldn't make any sense to have a dodge mechanic if you still took damage when you used it.

What? The purpose of a dodge mechanic is a single fast acting movement to get away from an attack. Since when were dodge mechanics only functional when you are invincible the entire way through it?

I can't tell if you're trying to argue with me or completely reaffirm everything I'm saying...

So, if you attempted to evade an attack and got hit, you'd still say you dodged it?

DamageCK wrote:I can't tell if you're trying to argue with me or completely reaffirm everything I'm saying...

So, if you attempted to evade an attack and got hit, you'd still say you dodged it?

Theres a few ways of looking at it, if sombody swung their great axe at me and i rolled backwards and i was about 6 feet away from his axe when it made contact with the floor and i got hit then i would say bs, but more than likely it would be because of lag. If somebody swung their great axe and i rolled straight forward and i got hit, then i would say "well that teaches me to not roll into a attack" in a nutshell no i wouldent expect to not get damaged because i rolled, if he swung a sword and i rolled straight into it then yes it should be a legitimate hit.

Okay, well thats not an accurate interpretation of the game's actual mechanic. If you dodge, you don't take damage. Period. I mean, that's what dodging IS.

Lag makes that a highly impractical system. By the time you could react to an attack, you'd already have been hit on their screen, thus you would take damage, never mind the coding nightmare that would be implimenting such a systems while trying to account for lag.

It would also make dodging wog, great fire ball and great combustion nearly or completely impossible.

The game is not real life, if you want real swordfighting then go fence or do kendo.

DamageCK wrote:Okay, well thats not an accurate interpretation of the game's actual mechanic. If you dodge, you don't take damage. Period. I mean, that's what dodging IS.

Well yes we know that at this point, press o at right time to get through anything, equip this ring and the "get through anything" time increases and you dodge further and faster. I do understand that fast/mid/slow roll have i-frames as well but not nearly as good as the dwgr, nobody has a fast roll i frame down enough where they roll straight into wogs with confidence that they will not get hit. I just hate the dwgr man. Overused over powerd overly retarded.

Forum Pirate wrote:Lag makes that a highly impractical system. By the time you could react to an attack, you'd already have been hit on their screen, thus you would take damage, never mind the coding nightmare that would be implimenting such a systems while trying to account for lag.

It would also make dodging wog, great fire ball and great combustion nearly or completely impossible.

The game is not real life, if you want real swordfighting then go fence or do kendo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63618OD1EHU
go to like the first 5 seconds.

removing I frames would mean every one of those hit. I can do the same thing with the regular fast roll, but I if I had to be out of range or get hit, it would hit. Always, because I would be inside its area of effect. The system you describe would break magic (and the rest of the game but magic would be the most affected) for that reason, even more so with lag.

You have failed to properly respond to even one of my points in your beiber ring bashing session.

Also, what damage ment was that if you actually dodge, you don't get hit. If you got hit it wasn't a dodge.

Forum Pirate wrote:Lag makes that a highly impractical system. By the time you could react to an attack, you'd already have been hit on their screen, thus you would take damage, never mind the coding nightmare that would be implimenting such a systems while trying to account for lag.

It would also make dodging wog, great fire ball and great combustion nearly or completely impossible.


The game is not real life, if you want real swordfighting then go fence or do kendo.

So your trying to say the answer to everything is lag? "By the time you can react to an attack they allready hit you on their screen" Yes i can relate to this, theres nothing like a guy fliping+r1ing with a great club from 10 feet away and hitting me, but even if i rolled away or towards or whatever it would still count as a hit, but if a flip is involved its another story isent it? You know damn well if somebody with dwgr seen an attack coming and fliped away he would get away, lag or not.

I read your second point wrong i think, about the "impossible to dodge wog and blah blah blah" But that just leads back to what i was saying earlier somthing like wog you want to AVOID not jump into so if there was no i frames let him run up and try to spam it, then you roll back when hes about to do so? how hard was that to come up with? or if its combustion when he comes up to attack you gtfo of there or you attack him when he thinks your just retreating theres more than just "flip/roll" away or into it.
As for the last bit i was always interested in fencing but thanks to me living in a community of a population of 83 people (yes just 83) there isent exactly a fencing club here.
Sorry if i "Absolutely fail" to mark your points because your a big fan of the ring and cant play without it like the mass majority of pvpers now. But i do suggest you try not using it and break from the mold and give something else a go it feels pretty good when you give something up and then put yourself under a handicap (as some would call it) and you kick the snot out of the people that do use it.
@ the extra bit you threw in: like you said lag does have a factor and when it comes to "but it never hit me so why did i take damage" its because they hit you on their screen. but heres somthing. I hit them on my screen the a half a second later they flip and it dosent do damage, so what up with that?

It's threads like these that make me somewhat sad that I've mellowed towards the DWGR. The heated arguments, the constant debates, the many different tactics and points being thrown around and reused to try and convince the opposition. There's a passion there in all the hatred that I've somehow lost...

Have I simply grown too tolerant?

Reaperfan wrote:It's threads like these that make me somewhat sad that I've mellowed towards the DWGR. The heated arguments, the constant debates, the many different tactics and points being thrown around and reused to try and convince the opposition. There's a passion there in all the hatred that I've somehow lost...

Have I simply grown too tolerant?

well if facing the dwgr users dosent bother you anymore then so be it budd. I
can beat the dwgr users but im just expressing my opinion on the dwgr,
on a dwgr based thread, so why dont you share your thoughts on the
matter? Maybe the old spark is still in ya?

T-King-667 wrote:well if facing the dwgr users dosent bother you then so be it budd. I
can beat the dwgr users but im just expressing my opinion on the dwgr,
on a dwgr based thread, so why dont you share your thoughts on the
matter? Maybe the old spark is still in ya?

My thoughts on the DWGR can be quite easily summed up at this point by simply saying "meh." I don't like it, and I wish it didn't exist. I feel it looks ridiculous and undermines the very core of RPG class strategy basics, homogenizing builds into the same repetitive experience over and over again. I also realize there's nothing we can realistically do to stop it. No amount of me trying to prove a point with not using the ring will affect the community as a whole, the ring has penetrated too deeply into the PvP metagame. I'd be an idiot to try and convince anyone that they shouldn't use it, and I've stopped trying to convince myself that choosing to not use it provides anything besides a personal moral high ground by puting yourself at a statistical disadvantage and overcoming the odds through superior skill.

I still believe that this moral high ground is worth it, and that I should play the way I believe, even if it costs me success. I see a DWGR user, and I no longer begrudge them for using it, I simply realize that they don't have a personal code as deep as mine and have succumbed to the power brought about by the DWGR. It has simply become an inevitability. I see a DWGR user, and I think "meh."

Reaperfan wrote:

T-King-667 wrote:well if facing the dwgr users dosent bother you then so be it budd. I
can beat the dwgr users but im just expressing my opinion on the dwgr,
on a dwgr based thread, so why dont you share your thoughts on the
matter? Maybe the old spark is still in ya?

My thoughts on the DWGR can be quite easily summed up at this point by simply saying "meh." I don't like it, and I wish it didn't exist. I feel it looks ridiculous and undermines the very core of RPG class strategy basics, homogenizing builds into the same repetitive experience over and over again. I also realize there's nothing we can realistically do to stop it. No amount of me trying to prove a point with not using the ring will affect the community as a whole, the ring has penetrated too deeply into the PvP metagame. I'd be an idiot to try and convince anyone that they shouldn't use it, and I've stopped trying to convince myself that choosing to not use it provides anything besides a personal moral high ground by puting yourself at a statistical disadvantage and overcoming the odds through superior skill.

I still believe that this moral high ground is worth it, and that I should play the way I believe, even if it costs me success. I see a DWGR user, and I no longer begrudge them for using it, I simply realize that they don't have a personal code as deep as mine and have succumbed to the power brought about by the DWGR. It has simply become an inevitability. I see a DWGR user, and I think "meh."

So back in the day you used to despise the ring and all who wore it but now you just see it everywhere and theres no point looking down on others for useing it, and i get ya. Im kinda the oposite way though before it never really botherd me, but now that everybody is using and abusing it can get annoying as hell.

No, I'm saying lag must be accounted for.

Your claim that the regular fast or medium roll can't use iframes to soak a hit from the club roll r1 is false, it simply takes more presice timing.

If anyone sees an attack coming and has time to react they'll likely get away, with or without the beiber ring. The beiber ring helps mitegate the impact of lag in this specific instance, but it doesn't negate it, I've been hit by many attacks that I dodged in time on my screen while using the beiber ring.

Wog is a outwardly expanding shockwave that covers a larger distance than a roll, of any kind, does. Without Invincibility frames to soak the hit, it would be pretty damn hard, at best, to get out of the range of wog in time to avoid a hit in the caster was as close as around bss r2 striking distance, and the lack of invincibility frames would require an exceedingly fast reaction even at medium ranges posessed by the claymore roll r1. Removing invincibility frames from dodges would increase the usefulness of this already useful spell in seriously balance damaging ways.

Great combustion is similarly fast, and has a seriously deceptive hitbox. It would still be less useful than wog, but reacting in time to a decently timed combustion cast requires a speed as is, if invincibility frames couldn't soak the hit, it would also be even more difficult to punish a cast because it can often be cast again fast enough that any non-bs punish attempt would likely see one cooked by a follow up, and the inability to roll through it would virtually rule out any roll bs punish.


Your solution works in theory, but the casting speed+lag renders such a solution non-functional in practice. Its the same reason its almost impossible to parry most attacks after one sees them start.

I can and have fought without using the beiber ring, my mages and large weapon users specificly benefit more from other rings. Its no more or less satisfying to me to win without using the beiber ring. I find no pleasure in winning handicapped. If the most beneficial ring for the build is the beiber ring, I use it. Not using it in those cases is inarguably a handicap. I want to win by giving it everything it I've got, using all of the best gear and tactics available, against opponents skilled opponents doing their best, with every advantage they can manage to get. To go all out and push every aspect of my skill, the build, and the mechanics and barely survive. Those are my favorite fights.

You presuppose that I care, or should care, or would care wether or not I'm different. I don't. I am what I am. My build is not a reflection of me.

I'm a "big fan" of anything I can use effectively to accomplish my goal, in this case its winning without using the magic swap or dragon glitches.

Lag, on their screen they reacted in time and invincibility frames took the hit.

*looks at post length* sweet baby jesus what have i done? lol ill reply to your post later today, but right now im too tired man.

Lol, fair enough.

TL:DR version for now then.

Lag+casting speed makes your theories work best in theory, they would fall short often in practice. Its the same reason its impossible to parry many weapons if you try to parry after one sees the attack start.

I have builds that don't use the beiber ring (casters and large weapon users) and I find wins no more or less satisfying based on wether or not I use it.

Lag, they dodged in time on their screen, so I frames soaked the hit.

T-King-667 wrote:So back in the day you used to despise the ring and all who wore it but now you just see it everywhere and theres no point looking down on others for useing it, and i get ya. Im kinda the oposite way though before it never really botherd me, but now that everybody is using and abusing it can get annoying as hell.

I feel like an old geezer saying this, but you weren't around back on the old forums when my hatred of the DWGR was in full swing. At one time, I had an entire project of polls going in an attempt to create argument-free and completely statistical proof that the ring was breaking PvP. And at one point just after the first FC where I thought I could find some interesting PvP, I almost stopped playing Dark Souls altogether when I realized that even amongst us on the forums, there were no interesting fights to be had as long as the DWGR was prevelant (this has obviously changed since then ).

Maybe I haven't grown complacent of it, and maybe my own hatred has just worn me out to the point where I can't even sustain said hatred. All I know now is that I've given up trying to champion any sort of anti-DWGR cause because it's just too tiresome to try and argue with the mindless sheep who don't see anything wrong with it. They'll keep going about, toting their win/loss ratio without any sort of recognition for deeper principles.

EDIT: I realize that last statement may have come across as rather harsh. I realize it as a gross generalization, and intended it to be interpreted as such. I am not attacking individuals by saying it, I am attacking the stereotype associated with the playerbase as a whole.

Goint to skip over the part where you insult everyone who disagrees with your opinion by calling them mindless sheep and focus on you principles point

Principles are individual and subjective. Not having standards for things could easily be argued as good. It was one considered principly wrong to watch many tv programs, play video games and use bows. The people and companies that ignored this got ahead, many got rich and england won a ton of wars and saved their soldiers lives.

In the end, all that matters is if you're happy with what you've accomplished, if what it took to get it was worth your reward.

As long as you can say it is, I fail to see why any additional rules need to implemented or enforced on others.

Has it changed reaper, really?

I know I still use the DWGR, but then again I've tried using fast or even medium roll on PvP, but because of lag they simply don't dodge. The only thing that lets me dodge in PvP is DWGR. I mean I know it sucks to admit, but without it I can't PvP simply because of the lag i always have from my awful internet. (I don't think I'm a mindless sheep though personally)

I don't see anything wrong with people using it really, but it sucks that it's so prevalent and required by some. It makes such a massive difference to the way you can make builds, but thing is removing it won't stop people all flocking to one ring. They'll just move on to another combo entirely. I say "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't", so to speak.

Reaperfan wrote:

T-King-667 wrote:So back in the day you used to despise the ring and all who wore it but now you just see it everywhere and theres no point looking down on others for useing it, and i get ya. Im kinda the oposite way though before it never really botherd me, but now that everybody is using and abusing it can get annoying as hell.

I feel like an old geezer saying this, but you weren't around back on the old forums when my hatred of the DWGR was in full swing. At one time, I had an entire project of polls going in an attempt to create argument-free and completely statistical proof that the ring was breaking PvP. And at one point just after the first FC where I thought I could find some interesting PvP, I almost stopped playing Dark Souls altogether when I realized that even amongst us on the forums, there were no interesting fights to be had as long as the DWGR was prevelant (this has obviously changed since then ).

Maybe I haven't grown complacent of it, and maybe my own hatred has just worn me out to the point where I can't even sustain said hatred. All I know now is that I've given up trying to champion any sort of anti-DWGR cause because it's just too tiresome to try and argue with the mindless sheep who don't see anything wrong with it. They'll keep going about, toting their win/loss ratio without any sort of recognition for deeper principles.

EDIT: I realize that last statement may have come across as rather harsh. I realize it as a gross generalization, and intended it to be interpreted as such. I am not attacking individuals by saying it, I am attacking the stereotype associated with the playerbase as a whole.

Well if you could patch the ring to make it tolerable and balanced what changed would you make to it?

I'd personally either make it so only medium armour or lighter could wear it.. Then again I realise that the players not FROM put armours into classes so that may not work...

The other idea I always put forward is to limit the equip weight you can have to make it useable to like 30-35 weight. That way it won't be that much of an advantage to use it and will only make a small difference, but heavy armours wouldn't be able to use it. Though this puts out guys who use STR weapons as they're a lot heavier and also means we'd see a lot of DWGR/wolf ring combos to still get poise and flip :|

Forum Pirate wrote:Goint to skip over the part where you insult everyone who disagrees with your opinion by calling them mindless sheep and focus on you principles point

Principles are individual and subjective. Not having standards for things could easily be argued as good. It was one considered principly wrong to watch many tv programs, play video games and use bows. The people and companies that ignored this got ahead, many got rich and england won a ton of wars and saved their soldiers lives.

In the end, all that matters is if you're happy with what you've accomplished, if what it took to get it was worth your reward.

As long as you can say it is, I fail to see why any additional rules need to implemented or enforced on others.

Firstly I realized my mistake in not being clear enough about what I intended with the final statement shortly after posting. I have since edited in a brief description telling how I did not intend it as an attack at actual players, rather as an attack towards a stereotype or extreme hypothetical imagining of a type of player.

I stated quite clearly in my second post that I no longer attempt to push my views onto others, and even realize that my personal views are holding me back in terms of success. I recognize the advantages of using superior gear, and understand, at least in part, the motives behind using it. I still choose not to use it myself. I do not believe a victory brought forth by using the DWGR is worth it, and using it to attain a victory would feel hollow.

It has been an incredibly long time since I have seriously proposed a change to the DWGR or asked others to play by my rules. Our playstyles define who we are, and for me to attempt to change a person is wrong. I do not begrudge other players or their choices, I begrudge the state I continue to see PvP heading towards.

T-King-667 wrote:Well if you could patch the ring to make it tolerable and balanced what changed would you make to it?

Make ninja flips cost 30%-50% more stamina than a regular roll or make wearing it reduce your poise by 50%.

DWGR only usable with 25% less weight

Wolfs ring only usable with medium or fat roll

Problem solved.

Or remove both rings and be happy. Looks like the problem its not dodging, its poise. In a demon's souls sense: you take the hit and survive, or you dodge it.

If I were to 'fix it' I would remove it, and probably would buff fat rolling too, so its not a death sentence to do so (just very inferior).

If I had to 'fix it' and actually keep it.... That would be harder to do and still maintain the ideal of it. It has no purpose for the builds that look cool with it (assasssins) but then again most people play 'assassins' with it (roll backstab for the win!). Therefore this ring works perfectly.

Still, I guess I would modify it to give a smaller tangible bonus. Right now, we know it ~doubles your Equip Load, and it probably increases your distance travels and your invincibility frames. I would increase your Equip Load for fast roll by 10 points. That is a good way to keep it in flavor. Since a player with low END/EL needs a larger amount than a percent (+10 is greater than the current 50% at low levels), it would work for low END builds, and not so much for people who have higher END. At 40 END, instead of giving 40 EL to flip, you'd have 30, but at 8 END, instead of 24 EL to flip, you have 22. That is a bonus that is straightforward, doesn't make the ring extremely good, but solid for certain, perhaps rarer builds.

Still I'd rather remove it, I don't hate it, I don't find it overpowered (it is probably the best ring overall), but its just quite boring. I dislike games against the same thing over and over.

Oh wait, I was just reading that over, and noticed that it isn't better even at lowest equip, but I don't really have a problem with my nerf still, just the phrase, "Since a player with low END/EL needs a larger amount than a percent (+10
is greater than the current 50% at low levels)" isn't quite true, but in comparison of 40END to 8END it is true.