Could the Flame be the SUN?

I always figures that was due to him being "used as fuel" by the flame.

Shkar wrote:

@Spur - I find that unlikely, but I'm willing to go with it to debate it. Why is the sun fading then?

Because.....uh......well......hmmm.......Becausemytheoryisawesomesoshutup.

The gods seem to be some form of undead mind you, so I imagine they are suspect to typical traits of the undead.

I´m definitely not a lore person, i shouldn´t even have entered the archives

Touche Spur, I'm not trying to say you can't think differently

So Tolvo, can we agree that there is at least SOME link between the sun and the flame, since they are both fading? Even if they aren't the SAME thing, it's still a big thing since it implies that letting the flame die kills the sun.

I believe Tolvo is correct here, as mentioned before by various people I feel that when Gwyn linked the flame and inevitably failed to save Lordran the symbolic title of a 'Cinder' was given to him, I don't think this reflects him gaining any new powers, in fact I believe that if anything he has only a fraction of his previous strength.

As for the sunlight spears with the silver knights, perhaps during the time of the ancients the lord souls were far more powerful thus allowing Gwyn to essentially share gained abilities with his followers, also explains how the player can essentially forge a (weaker?) imitation of this miracle from the very last remains of his soul. This would explain why the knights aren't able to use them when the player ends up fighting them as what energy they have left is spent solely on stationary defence of Anor Londo.

Again agreeing with Tolvo I don't see how the First Flame and Sun can be the same thing, rather they are both very closely connected to one another as the flame seems to provide all energy for life thus enabling the Sun to sustain the planet. Thus bringing in an age of Dark if the player decides not to follow Gwyn by attempting to use your own powers to give the flame that extra little kick to keep on giving life.

Yeah, I can say that at least indirectly there is a link.

While we're on the topic of Gwyn and the Lord Souls, I'm going to get a bit off topic.

Did Gwyn have another way to open the Kiln without needing all the Lord Souls, or did he shut the door behind him? If so, why?

Shkar wrote:While we're on the topic of Gwyn and the Lord Souls, I'm going to get a bit off topic.

Did Gwyn have another way to open the Kiln without needing all the Lord Souls, or did he shut the door behind him? If so, why?

Kaathe refers to the Kiln as Gwyn's "prison", and the descriptions of the lord souls would imply that they were given by Gwyn to Seathe, the Four Kings, etc., a long, long time ago, so I am assuming the Kiln wasn't locked until Gwyn arrived there (imprisoning himself), possibly sealing it behind him out of fear of the Dark Lord.

Or maybe he did this...

Tolvo wrote:First

I'm still leaning towards the afterlife idea, but it's possible. The strange thing to me is that lightning seems to represent the sun in this world, not fire. So I'm not entirely sure about that. Why would the power of the flame of the sun, give him lightning abilities? I know that linking the flame turned him into the lord of cinder, but all in all the two just don't seem very related to me. Not to mention, you are talking about space travel.

Fire seems to relate to sacrifice if you ask me. Gwyn links the flame and gets burnt out. Salaman loses himself to the flame. Power Within burns away your life essence. Kidling the flame consumes your humanity....

etc

A bit off topic, but if you destroy the illusion of the sun in Anor Londo, why does it still shine at Sen's fortress? Aren't they just separated by those walls?

DancingFood wrote:A bit off topic, but if you destroy the illusion of the sun in Anor Londo, why does it still shine at Sen's fortress? Aren't they just separated by those walls?

It's an oversight by From Software, or something they didn't feel was necessary to do.

Barnission wrote:

Shkar wrote:While we're on the topic of Gwyn and the Lord Souls, I'm going to get a bit off topic.

Did Gwyn have another way to open the Kiln without needing all the Lord Souls, or did he shut the door behind him? If so, why?

Kaathe refers to the Kiln as Gwyn's "prison", and the descriptions of the lord souls would imply that they were given by Gwyn to Seathe, the Four Kings, etc., a long, long time ago, so I am assuming the Kiln wasn't locked until Gwyn arrived there (imprisoning himself), possibly sealing it behind him out of fear of the Dark Lord.

Or maybe he did this...

Gwyn only gave out the lord soul fragments that Seath and the 4K had (although that may be all you meant).

In addition, the only reference we EVER get to the Dark Lord is the few mentions Kaathe says. It is entirely possible that nobody else knew about it and/or it's a complete lie. Everybody seems to agree that the Flame and the Sun are at least linked. It is logical that the flame dying would kill the sun as well, which would destroy all life on "earth".

Take a look at the intro. No sun, just fog. Now its possible this is due to its underground location but its also possible they are linked.
About the sun, are you sure the anor londo sun is the same sun as the sun for Sen's and the arhicves etc?

DoughGuy wrote:Take a look at the intro. No sun, just fog. Now its possible this is due to its underground location but its also possible they are linked.
About the sun, are you sure the anor londo sun is the same sun as the sun for Sen's and the arhicves etc?

You can see the sun back-lighting Gwyn and his army when they are first "announced", and you can see it peaking through the clouds when Nito is actually decaying the tree roots.

In regards to the second part, the sun is actually at different parts of the sky in different areas, almost as if the game takes place over a day. I wouldn't be susprised if the sun throughout the whole game was a massive "illusion" (The Sun is obviously still there, so it would be stronger then an illusion) or if the game was supposed to be Majora's Mask style played over a certain in-game "time period".

Shkar those things happen after the first flame is born. Stop arguing against someone helping your case lol!

DoughGuy wrote:Shkar those things happen after the first flame is born. Stop arguing against someone helping your case lol!

I'll stop arguing against you when I'm DEAD!

That said, EVERYTHING happens after the first flame was born. The damn thing CREATED opposites. Everything would have just been...Neutral.

Exactly. The first flame made the sun, and then technically mustve made the moon or something to balance it.

DoughGuy wrote:Exactly. The first flame made the sun, and then technically mustve made the moon or something to balance it.

Lies! The Moon doesn't balance the sun in anyway! PHYSICS!

Shkar wrote:

Barnission wrote:

Shkar wrote:While we're on the topic of Gwyn and the Lord Souls, I'm going to get a bit off topic.

Did Gwyn have another way to open the Kiln without needing all the Lord Souls, or did he shut the door behind him? If so, why?

Kaathe refers to the Kiln as Gwyn's "prison", and the descriptions of the lord souls would imply that they were given by Gwyn to Seathe, the Four Kings, etc., a long, long time ago, so I am assuming the Kiln wasn't locked until Gwyn arrived there (imprisoning himself), possibly sealing it behind him out of fear of the Dark Lord.

Or maybe he did this...

Gwyn only gave out the lord soul fragments that Seath and the 4K had (although that may be all you meant).

In addition, the only reference we EVER get to the Dark Lord is the few mentions Kaathe says. It is entirely possible that nobody else knew about it and/or it's a complete lie. Everybody seems to agree that the Flame and the Sun are at least linked. It is logical that the flame dying would kill the sun as well, which would destroy all life on "earth".

Oh, yeah, you're right. I had a brain fart and forgot the lord souls dropped by Nito and the Bed of Chaos are their souls, not fragments of Gwyn's soul. So never mind the "etc".

I always thought that Gwyn's change from lord of sunlight to lord of cinder was because his soul was burning as fuel for so long that it had become mostly ash/cinder

also I thought that most of his soul was cinder and that the soul you get is just "unused" fuel

madd addam wrote:I always thought that Gwyn's change from lord of sunlight to lord of cinder was because his soul was burning as fuel for so long that it had become mostly ash/cinder

also I thought that most of his soul was cinder and that the soul you get is just "unused" fuel

No, that's right. I was merely pointing that part out as a symbolical thing. It could be meant to show that he has "burned down to the end", and it was meant as a red herring.

One thing I thought was interesting was that he was related somehow to lightning but his sword isn't crackling with electricity but is instead on fire AND when the player uses it it has no special elemental properties so by linking the flame did his affinity change from lightning to flame? is that why there is the connection between the fading lightning bolts and the fading flame and sun?

madd addam wrote:One thing I thought was interesting was that he was related somehow to lightning but his sword isn't crackling with electricity but is instead on fire AND when the player uses it it has no special elemental properties so by linking the flame did his affinity change from lightning to flame? is that why there is the connection between the fading lightning bolts and the fading flame and sun?

His Lightning Bolts are fading because they are driven/powered/whatever by the sun, which is fading because...well, because it is.

Even now, there are only embers, and man sees not light, but only endless nights."

Fire still exists, however everything is still night. Man uses bonfires at the night in reality to see and also to survive better than to wander in the Darkness.

THe Endless Nights is reminisant to the fact that the Lord of Sunlight is absent, as one became a firekeeper while another had left Lordran (God of War), leaving none to hold the torch of being the Lord of Sunlight.

Look at Gwyndolin, Seath, Priscilla, Four Kings, Nito, and other bosses as well as the domains they hold and the creatures and power they weild in this world... they are rather Dark that Light, and even the Chaos world is Darkness only light by vast amount of fire. Only a few specific places have light remaining... a few specific places.

Sunlight is only seen a few places in this world... Miracles that use to be the powers of such Gods such as Gwynevre, Gwyn, and the God of War... with the Miracles being one of the rarest Spells to Obtain, and one of the most restrained as well to Covenant Specific (Sunlight Spear and Healing Sunlight Miracles past Replenishment).