Just a few things about Dark Souls I still dont understand.

For anyone who actually knows the answers to these questions please do post here. Its just a few things I simply can't figure out or don't know about the game.

1. What is Lautrec's relations to Solaire. They are in the same sort of area at the start of the game when you find thier physical forms in your world, and also can both be summoned/ found in the Great Hall area of Anor Londo?

2. NPC summons for certain bosses? Why do these NPC's join you? Why does Witch _____ forgot her name get summoned at the Butterfly and not the Four Kings?

3.Has anyone ever considered Lautrec for God of War or perhaps Solaire and Lautrec being linked to one another in this GoW theories?

Will post more when I remember them. But yeah any light that can be shed of these questions would be super appreciated with much much Reputation!

2. Beatrice can be summoned for the 4 Kings, provided you summoned her earlier on for the Butterfly fight.

Where is her sign and how effective is she?

By the bridge. Her effectiveness is mostly in keeping the Kings' attention off of you and helping deal some damage whenever her magic connects.

Just make sure you kill all the ghosts, because if you don't she'll just stay up in the stairs firing magic at the ghosts the entire time.

Okay thanks man I now have two more questions to add.

4. The nature of the Soul withing Dark Souls? The Lore/ Intro says that the original beings/ primeval humans found the Souls of the Lords within the Flame. After watching Soul eater and seeing how souls worked in it..... Can I take that to mean that before the primeval beings had the strength to rise up that they were simply mortals/ or some other form of life that made use of the souls as weapons? Also perhaps being undead/ having the dark sign means that a normal human being can hold on to/ collect more souls than he or she would normally have the capacity to do so.

5. Now in addition to 4 could it be possible to assume that the souls we accrue in Dark Souls could each be equivalent to the 'human' capacity of a soul. E.G- Gwyn's Soul is worth 20000 or something.... does that mean Gwyn's power, the size of his soul was equivalent to 20,000 human souls?

1. They're both heading to anor londo, so they follow the same path to it. I don't think there is anything more than that.
2. Her sign is pretty far away lol, I only found it cause I was farming DWs for chunks as human once.
3. Lautrec isnt the GoW for the same reason Solaire isnt.

I get why three is the case.... but are we sure there isnt more of a connection between the two? I would kind of like to have seen more from Lautrec if you decided not to kill him in revenge.

ViralEnsign_ wrote:Okay thanks man I now have two more questions to add.

4. The nature of the Soul withing Dark Souls? The Lore/ Intro says that the original beings/ primeval humans found the Souls of the Lords within the Flame. After watching Soul eater and seeing how souls worked in it..... Can I take that to mean that before the primeval beings had the strength to rise up that they were simply mortals/ or some other form of life that made use of the souls as weapons? Also perhaps being undead/ having the dark sign means that a normal human being can hold on to/ collect more souls than he or she would normally have the capacity to do so.

5. Now in addition to 4 could it be possible to assume that the souls we accrue in Dark Souls could each be equivalent to the 'human' capacity of a soul. E.G- Gwyn's Soul is worth 20000 or something.... does that mean Gwyn's power, the size of his soul was equivalent to 20,000 human souls?

I think the soul we see is quite literally just someone's "lifeforce". The stronger it is, the more powerful they are. It would be the equivalent of an olympic athlete in their early 20's and an 80 year old man on his deathbed. One is just more "alive"/"powerful" than the others.

As for souls, you are both right and wrong. The "souls" are actually a form of unit, like liters or feet. When you get 20K or whatever for killing the bell gargoyles, you aren't LITERALLY getting 20K human souls. You are getting a single (maybe 2, in this case) souls that are as powerful as 20,000x times whatever a "single soul" is. Although strange, the closest I can think of for them to base it off of is the crystal lizards, so who knows.

Yeah what I mean was that we are measuring the value of a soul as equivalent to number of human souls that would equal its power?

Are souls then in this regard weapons? The Lord Souls? Did beings have souls before such things were found?

- In using Soul Magics are we not firing off parts of the soul? Or is that why castings are now in effect. Attunement suggests to me how attuned one is to thier own soul and thus how far they can push themselves in the use of certain magics?

ViralEnsign_ wrote:Yeah what I mean was that we are measuring the value of a soul as equivalent to number of human souls that would equal its power?

Are souls then in this regard weapons? The Lord Souls? Did beings have souls before such things were found?

- In using Soul Magics are we not firing off parts of the soul? Or is that why castings are now in effect. Attunement suggests to me how attuned one is to thier own soul and thus how far they can push themselves in the use of certain magics?

For the first part, I'm guessing that The Lord Souls were an additional soul that they got, but then it's power either shifted into their actual soul, or that got/was powerful as well (you don't use up the lord soul when you get the souls from killing them).

For the second, I think it's something like this: The stronger your soul, the more "powerful" you can make your spells. It's the difference between using 1g of gunpowder and 10kgs, or 1 coulomb of current and 1M coulombs. As for the casting, it seems as if your assumption is pretty much correct, and a soul can just "heal" minor damage like that, or the part of your soul that you fire is some kind of "mana pool" FILLED by your soul, and you're just draining it, not actually separating it.

Cool thanks for your thoughts Shkar

ViralEnsign_ wrote:1. What is Lautrec's relations to Solaire. They are in the same sort of area at the start of the game when you find thier physical forms in your world, and also can both be summoned/ found in the Great Hall area of Anor Londo?

You were supposed to feel a part of a RPG party with them. Like best bros forever. And then you would find out Lautrec was only using you; and that he "betrayed" you. You, Lautrec and Solaire are three undeads that are progressing at the same pace. Lautrec however gave up on going to the Kiln.

2. NPC summons for certain bosses? Why do these NPC's join you? Why does Witch _____ forgot her name get summoned at the Butterfly and not the Four Kings?

Actually you can summon her; if you summoned her before during the Moonlight Butterfly battle.

3.Has anyone ever considered Lautrec for God of War or perhaps Solaire and Lautrec being linked to one another in this GoW theories?

They are both humans / undead. The God of War is of the same race as Gwyn; and they can't become undead.

ViralEnsign_ wrote:4. The nature of the Soul withing Dark Souls? The Lore/ Intro says that the original beings/ primeval humans found the Souls of the Lords within the Flame.

Prior to them Fire Age; the Age of Ancients was just like any RPG world. There were different nations / races living together in a world with dragons raiding cities once in a while.
Nito is a lich and father to the Necromancy. Just like every RPG. lol

One day though, the Primordial Serpents posted a QUEST in a random bulletin (just like any rpg) about some First Flame ****. lol

Some people took on this quest, but only four parties made it to the Flame. Gwyn took an army with him to make it to the Kiln; the Witch brought her daughters; Nito probably brought some Skeleton puppets and the Pygmy made it there, probably following them, evading any true dangers; being furtive lol.

The soul during the Age of Ancients has the same value as EXP has in RPGs. The Soul of Lords is like an item that gives to +999999 exp to anyone; making you god-like. Again, just like any RPG.

5. Now in addition to 4 could it be possible to assume that the souls we accrue in Dark Souls could each be equivalent to the 'human' capacity of a soul. E.G- Gwyn's Soul is worth 20000 or something.... does that mean Gwyn's power, the size of his soul was equivalent to 20,000 human souls?

Later in the DkS history, the Lords learned that they could divide their Souls and share their power with people. Think of the "single soul" just like the old concept of atoms: the smallest particle that anything can be divided into. The amount of souls anyone has; is more related to their EXP. lol

ViralEnsign_ wrote:In using Soul Magics are we not firing off parts of the soul? Or is that why castings are now in effect. Attunement suggests to me how attuned one is to thier own soul and thus how far they can push themselves in the use of certain magics?

That's why we call Character Levels in DkS as Soul Level (SL); the stronger your soul (if you upgrade your INT and Attunement) the stronger you are in the way of magic. It's all about your soul; yeah.

They are both humans / undead. The God of War is of the same race as Gwyn; and they can't become undead.

But the God of War lost his deidic status... probably turning into something more like an human. Also, Solaire became Undead by his own choise, so he could visit Lordran (wich make me think he was forbidden to enter Lordran, probably spelled of Lordran after losing his deidic status).

I'm not saying that Soilare is the Sun's Firstborn, but I'm not saying he isn't either.

FellipeMariano wrote:But the God of War lost his deidic status... probably turning into something more like an human. Also, Solaire became Undead by his own choise, so he could visit Lordran (wich make me think he was forbidden to enter Lordran, probably spelled of Lordran after losing his deidic status).

I'm not saying that Soilare is the Sun's Firstborn, but I'm not saying he isn't either.

Gwyndudes, humans, Izalith bros are all diferent species. The developers said this themselves during a (funny) interview in a japanese radio.

Gwyn and his children are not really gods; they just shepherd the humans and tricked humankind into fearing and worshipping the giants (that's how I call Gwyn and co). That's why they can be easily killed.

Just like any Mage can trick a less developed tribe that he is a deity; Gwyn's children did that to humans; and blurred their past.

Orango19 wrote:

FellipeMariano wrote:But the God of War lost his deidic status... probably turning into something more like an human. Also, Solaire became Undead by his own choise, so he could visit Lordran (wich make me think he was forbidden to enter Lordran, probably spelled of Lordran after losing his deidic status).

I'm not saying that Soilare is the Sun's Firstborn, but I'm not saying he isn't either.

Gwyndudes, humans, Izalith bros are all diferent species. The developers said this themselves during a (funny) interview in a japanese radio.

Gwyn and his children are not really gods; they just shepherd the humans and tricked humankind into fearing and worshipping the giants (that's how I call Gwyn and co). That's why they can be easily killed.

Just like any Mage can trick a less developed tribe that he is a deity; Gwyn's children did that to humans; and blurred their past.

I'm not sure on that middle point. Did the Londo Bunch reap the benefits of their outrageous power? Sure, who wouldn't in that situation. But I DO think they are more "god-like" than the average joe. Gwyn's kids have been around for over a millenia, after all. Same with the Izalith daughters (probably even longer for them). However, there is no way the humans have that kind of life span.

Humans can have that kind of lifespan. But meeting certain criteria.

Gwyn, Nito and the Witch got Lord Souls; their power increase or decrease according to the First Flame.

The Pygmy, father of all mankind; got the Dark Soul, unlike the other 3 Lords, his power increases as the Flame fades.

Humans possessing little pieces of the Dark Soul within themselves, become immortal (true immortality, at its finest). Undeath is a wonderful gift, and a pain in the *** to your enemies. If there is anyone closer to godhood during the gameplay, this "one" is all the humans (undead).
If you put on your head that you feel like killing Gwyndollin, the god of the Dark Sun, all you have to do is go there and challenge him; if you fail, you can try again as many times as you want, you are immortal and there is nothing Gwyndollin can do about it.
Since we are closer to the Dark Age than to the Age of Fire during the gameplay, that would explain why humans are stronger than the "gods". (Maybe when the flames finally disappear forever humans will find themselves even stronger). This kind of immortality and godhood must be what Gwyn experienced when he got his Lord Soul, and what his children held in their hands after Gwyn departed to Link the Flame. That's why humans were so easily tricked into believing they were gods.

We dont know that Gwyn Nito or the Izalithians were ever human.

Edit and in dark souls there is no such thing as true immortality.

Additonally we dont know when we are situated in the time line because at the end of the game you can either restart the Age of Fire or begin the Age of Dark.

Neither is 'closer' in terms of time and niether is a fixed period of time.

We dont know that Gwyn Nito or the Izalithians were ever human.

They aren't; Gwyn and Izalithians are two different species apart from Humans. The developers explained that when asked if your character could have his ways with Queelana. lol

Edit and in dark souls there is no such thing as true immortality.

Your character is immortal; if you keep your sanity and nobody Link the Fire (ending the Undeads)

Additonally we dont know when we are situated in the time line because at the end of the game you can either restart the Age of Fire or begin the Age of Dark.

Neither is 'closer' in terms of time and niether is a fixed period of time.

The concept of Ages at first really did have a linear feel to it; just like we see our own nowadays. However, when you learn from Kaathe that long ago an Age of Dark (of Men) existed; you realize the Ages has little to do with time, and more with the status of the First Flame.

When the First Flame starts to fade, the world get "Darker", the Undead start to appear and the power of the gods is weakened. If you don't interfere at all, the world will reach the Dark Age on its own; since the First Flame is fated to fade.

The fact that you don't find any gods in Anor Londo (they left probably fleeing from the Undead) and that the world is full of Undeads is the biggest proof that we are not really in the Age of Fire no more; probably in the Twilight between the end of Fire and beginning of Dark. That's why I say we are "closer" to the Age of Men.

(And because Men are stronger than the gods and Lords, hell yeah LOL)

Okay tangentially.... you have to agree that in the Dark Souls universe mankind should never rule itself dont you?

The Age of Fire needs to be continued.

Naaah, lets not be like Gwyn; afraid of the Dark. lol
The undead managed to create a small society of their own (a psychopathic one, but even though it's better than nothing). Humans are fine without the "gods"; they only need a charismatic leader (the Dark Lord) to unite them all and create some rules.

Life within walled cities is safer than adventuring outside; not Undead would "die" and loose their Humanity / Souls; and Hollows would only exist in the wilds or around the Darkwraith's (cough cough Vampires) Lands.

The Undead can survive in the Dark world, if they have a Dark Lord to guide them. So yeah, mankind can't rule itself, if you consider the Dark Lord to be some kind of deity.

The only problem I see with your logic really is that you are completely trusting Kaathe. Which is...fine, I suppose. Goes against my thought thoughts, but I happen to know you are in good company here.

That said, I'm not sure how much you have read on this forum, but I have managed to scrounge together some evidence suggesting that the flame affects the sun and/or all fire in general. So yes, the Dark Sign does indeed make you "immortal" (Not sure exactly how many "loops" you would last), but you would be in a world of complete cold and darkness.

In addition, (Just minor facts) normal humans have humanity and aren't immortal, so humanity isn't THAT powerful; as well, saying the dark soul gets more powerful as teh flame fades screams against all the logic I possess. So the dark soul is at it's weakest during the flame's brightest period? Then why was the pygmy mentioned in the intro? What could he have done at his weakest point?

(Remember, many people here have not played DLC, so no spoilers )

Shkar wrote:The only problem I see with your logic really is that you are completely trusting Kaathe. Which is...fine, I suppose. Goes against my thought thoughts, but I happen to know you are in good company here.

I admit, all my theories and how I percieve the DkS lore is based on that bit-chy Serpent. lol

It's a little risky, but lore-wise, he is the NPC that gives you the best explanation to what is happening around you. Frampt only offers to end the Undead and doesn't explain it at all.

And if you put the fact the developers confirmed that Humanities are small fragments of the Dark Soul Pygmy found. And that the game was meant to be named Dark Race (the humans), before people with racistic* thoughts said it would be inappropriate. It seems the developers at least, follow the same line of thought as Kaathe. That's why I trust that bastard.

(Even though I am a Chaos Servant at heart lol)
*yeah, I created a new word. lol

That said, I'm not sure how much you have read on this forum, but I have managed to scrounge together some evidence suggesting that the flame affects the sun and/or all fire in general. So yes, the Dark Sign does indeed make you "immortal" (Not sure exactly how many "loops" you would last), but you would be in a world of complete cold and darkness.

I consider the Painted World to be the example of how the world would look like if the First Flame disappeared. Cold and dark. (yeah, you can ditch the torches)

Zombies seem to do just fine, if they retain their sanity. And as the Crestfallen dudes (the merchant and the knight/soldier) proved (kinda) if you keep some souls and humanities with you; you don't go hollow. And the only way the game showed how you can loose those, is if you die. So if you keep your corpse safe from danger and with a few humanities (at least one) and a few souls; you are as good as immortal.

But... have you considered how the Firelink Altar has some lighting of its own (I can't remember if it has torches) even if you decide to throw the world into the Age of Dark, by destroying the Soul that was burning (Gwyn) and the only thing that was still keeping the First Flame alive?

If my theory fails, we should have a deeper study on Magic (Cast Light) and its relation to the First Flame.

In addition, (Just minor facts) normal humans have humanity and aren't immortal, so humanity isn't THAT powerful; as well, saying the dark soul gets more powerful as teh flame fades screams against all the logic I possess. So the dark soul is at it's weakest during the flame's brightest period? Then why was the pygmy mentioned in the intro? What could he have done at his weakest point?

(Remember, many people here have not played DLC, so no spoilers )

You see, the Dark Soul and Humanities are the same thing. The developers confirmed that themselves during an interview to a Japanese Radio Show. And AGAIN, I'm basing my theory on Kaathe (the reason I always do so is explained on the first quote-reply in this post). The Pygmy waited for the Flame to start to fade (and with it, the world getting Darker, and with it Undeads appearing - if you consider what Frampt says about Linking the Fire - Ending the Undead Curse) to do ****. Probably because he couldn't do anything before that, because the Dark Soul must have some relation with the world getting Darker (by losing its light-life source = The FF).

So when the FF is at its weakest, the Undead appear, giving some kind of immortality to the humans (possessors of the Dark Souls) making them powerful enough to raid Anor Londo and kill gods
And when the FF is at its strongest, we have what you call normal humans, mortals, weaklings if you compare them to the other races.

The Pygmy got there by being Furtive, Fog Ring + Silent steps Dragon Ring all the way. lol (not that those rings existed back there, I just mean that if you want to, you can evade all combat in the game, if you are furtive enough). And since there wasn't any Lordvessel filling requirement back then, the Pygmy got there by being smart, not being strong.

I get what you are saying about Kaathe, there really isn't much in the way of information being passed around, but he still seems shady as heck to me. Heck, why on earth would HE want the age of man to come about? Does he think he will be granted some kind of celebratory gift basket?

Souls are the source of all life, as said in the item descriptions for Humanity (IIRC). It is also stated that the flame created life (though probably in a "made it possible" way). Obviously, the odds are good that there is some kind of link between souls and the flame. The strongest souls from the flame made the holders comparable to gods, and it seems like nearly EVERYONE got at last a bit of soul from it.If the Gods' souls weaken as the flame does, why wouldn't the humans?

For the light in the Dark Lord ending, it is entire possible (if not probable) that the light is simply caused by the fact that the fire isn't QUITE out yet. Sure, you removed the fuel source that it was burning on for a long time, but it managed to last just fine before it was linked, so it can go for a little while at least.

I'm unsure what you mean by humanity and the dark soul being "the same thing". Too the best of my knowledge and lore digging, the dark sign is simply a symbol that "brands" the undead, as a marking of sorts. The most I have been able to guess it's location too is the eyes, which actually has a bit of philosophical basis (window to the souls, and all that).

The Undead curse strikes me almost as a sort of "last resource" for the flame. It's dying, and it almost appears sentient in the way it reacts. But to what end? The only real reference to change is the humanity descriptions which describes humans as not knowing the use before the curse, but the terminology is all wrong. You don't "kindle" a flame to make it grow larger, you stoke it. "Kindling" is that initial act that you use to get the fire to actually START.

For humanity getting stronger as the flame dies, do you mean the gods get weaker (so, we get stronger by comparison), or do you mean it literally? I find it unlikely that the death of the power source of the universe would cause a higher power increase in general than the power source being at its height.

Finally, as for your last point, I think there was some slight miscommunication. I'm not asking how the Pygmy GOT his soul. Not really all that important, in the current conversation. What I was asking is what he did that was important enough for him to be remembered in the legends beside the likes of Gwyn, Nito, and the Witch. The only actual reference to him in game is from Kaathe, and yet he was important enough to be mentioned next to the big wigs.

I was preparing a very big post, explaining my theory about the DkS Lore, but I got a little carried away. lol

You made a very good reply, pointed out some flaws in my theory, and for that, I'm very thankful!

Shkar wrote:I get what you are saying about Kaathe, there really isn't much in the way of information being passed around, but he still seems shady as heck to me. Heck, why on earth would HE want the age of man to come about? Does he think he will be granted some kind of celebratory gift basket?

This is where I get confused and create at least a thousand theories to explain that; but the best one I can think of is that the Serpents (Snakes) are Imperfect Dragons, just like the Gaping Dragon, they must have evolved.

OR they are distant cousins to both Dragons (like Drakes) AND Humanoids.

If theory a) is true, than the PS want to destroy all Life and bring the Age of Ancients 2.0 (with them as Everlasting Imperfect Dragons ruling the world).
Now if theory b) is true, they must have some relation with the Dark and the Dark Soul. They all, except for Frampt, seem to come from the Abyss and at least Kaathe seem to have some desire in getting Humanities. I still believe the Dark Soul gets stronger as the Flame fades. This could be the reason the Primordial Serpents are interested in Humans and the Dark Soul.

Souls are the source of all life, as said in the item descriptions for Humanity (IIRC). It is also stated that the flame created life (though probably in a "made it possible" way). Obviously, the odds are good that there is some kind of link between souls and the flame. The strongest souls from the flame made the holders comparable to gods, and it seems like nearly EVERYONE got at last a bit of soul from it.If the Gods' souls weaken as the flame does, why wouldn't the humans?

My wild guess is that the Dark Soul was something more, found within the First Flame. Like a negative soul; the next step in the evolution of the cosmos. It's definitely no regular soul, since it doesn't mix with regular souls. AND OH SHIII, I JUST HAD AN AWESOME IDEA, I'M GOING TO SEND YOU A PM ABOUT IT LMAO

For the light in the Dark Lord ending, it is entire possible (if not probable) that the light is simply caused by the fact that the fire isn't QUITE out yet. Sure, you removed the fuel source that it was burning on for a long time, but it managed to last just fine before it was linked, so it can go for a little while at least.

You have a point, but that last scene would turn into a Surprise **** Party once the lights turn off; and I'm pretty sure the developers did not plan that. heh

I'm unsure what you mean by humanity and the dark soul being "the same thing". Too the best of my knowledge and lore digging, the dark sign is simply a symbol that "brands" the undead, as a marking of sorts. The most I have been able to guess it's location too is the eyes, which actually has a bit of philosophical basis (window to the souls, and all that).

The Humanities Item lol. They are fragments of the Dark Soul. As for the Dark Sign, I believe its location is randomic, different from person to person.

The Undead curse strikes me almost as a sort of "last resource" for the flame. It's dying, and it almost appears sentient in the way it reacts. But to what end? The only real reference to change is the humanity descriptions which describes humans as not knowing the use before the curse, but the terminology is all wrong. You don't "kindle" a flame to make it grow larger, you stoke it. "Kindling" is that initial act that you use to get the fire to actually START.

It seems like you are an agent of the Light and Order, while I'm an admirer of the Dark and Chaos lol We won't agree on this, I believe.
About the Kindling, I'm PMing you about something that just occurred me, you might find it interesting.

For humanity getting stronger as the flame dies, do you mean the gods get weaker (so, we get stronger by comparison), or do you mean it literally? I find it unlikely that the death of the power source of the universe would cause a higher power increase in general than the power source being at its height.

As the Flame dies the Lord Souls get weaker and the Dark Soul (Humanities) gets stronger. Maybe the Dark Soul is something else, like a vermin leeching the First Flame. Leeching across time and space, unseen to the eyes. lol (it's visible that I'm getting desperate)

hat I was asking is what he did that was important enough for him to be remembered in the legends beside the likes of Gwyn, Nito, and the Witch. The only actual reference to him in game is from Kaathe, and yet he was important enough to be mentioned next to the big wigs.

He got the 4th Greatest Soul from the Flame, possibly the strongest, all by himself; that's an awesome feat even if he didn't do anything else. He is the initial spark of curiosity that makes people try to understand the lore behind the game. The initial Lore Grail every player try to find. His mention in the Intro is very important gameplay wise.