It isn't presenting them a challenge or explaining PvP to them or allowing them to learn anything about the game other than that other players want to see you die. I suppose to me it just seems PvP was supposed to be more about challenging yourself and advancing in skill level rather than just giving those who glitch easy mode.
+37
reim0027
getsin
SunlightCrusader
FexDS
Lord of Ash
sonofartorias
VinheimProfessor
lordgodofhell
Cheesinator
Mr. Tart
StockpileThomas
bmurn
Dante_000
goober0331
ssss_2_is_pwnage
OrnsteinFanBoy
FruitPunchNinja
IV_Mark_VI
Rynn
Knight Alundil
Isirith
Mordreid
roanispe
Desiani
Hellion7776
Ghadis_God
Siegfried.
WyrmHero
somnam
cloudyeki
Tolvo
DoughGuy
Krasouski
ViralEnsign_
callipygias
Forum Pirate
Peaceful Wollyhop
41 posters
trolololololo
Poll
Why do you think people grief in Dark souls pvp?
- [ 6 ]
- [8%]
- [ 26 ]
- [37%]
- [ 9 ]
- [13%]
- [ 9 ]
- [13%]
- [ 21 ]
- [29%]
Total Votes: 71
Poll closed
Poll closed
Tolvo- Town Crier
- Posts : 13287
Reputation : 542
Join date : 2012-02-01
Age : 31
Location : The Forest, Illinois
- Post n°101
Re: trolololololo
They're being punished for wanting to fight other players? Excuse them for wanting to play the game rather than just being handed deaths.
It isn't presenting them a challenge or explaining PvP to them or allowing them to learn anything about the game other than that other players want to see you die. I suppose to me it just seems PvP was supposed to be more about challenging yourself and advancing in skill level rather than just giving those who glitch easy mode.
It isn't presenting them a challenge or explaining PvP to them or allowing them to learn anything about the game other than that other players want to see you die. I suppose to me it just seems PvP was supposed to be more about challenging yourself and advancing in skill level rather than just giving those who glitch easy mode.
Knight Alundil- Insomniac
- Posts : 1435
Reputation : 67
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Scotland
- Post n°102
Re: trolololololo
Tolvo wrote:The issue is how Dark Souls works. It is a difficult game and it kills you for your mistakes. You die because you didn't dodge at the right time, you are wearing the wrong type of gear for the zone, or because you fell for a hinted trap.
If a player is invaded by someone ninja flipping with a long spear and +10 armor, they can out dodge and play them for minutes and will still likely die. What did they do wrong? What are they being punished for, playing the game?
There is being "Hardcore," and there is hurting the community. I'm talking about griefing in the idea of someone BB glitching over gear and using it to kill undergeared players who are just starting out. Meaning, they are glitching regardless. Whether using a dragon roar to infinitely stun someone or invading with gear that will cause the invader to require 40 strikes to be killed but they can kill the host in one hit, really there is no difference. It's using a glitch to gain an advantage over others.
Dark Souls is about being punished for your mistakes, what are the players being punished for by the griefers. The fact that they're playing the game?
Ok really quick: You've based alot of this post on assuming that I agree that Dark Souls punishes for mistakes and that Griefing is the same as that. I would not consider them the same.
You're talking about community. Ok. There's many different parts of this community and many different views on what griefing and honorable play is. We all go through a journey in Dark Souls and become one of these types of players. One of the types is someone who likes to grief low level players.
Like you said it's a community and we all grow into different types of people.
I remember saying earlier in a post that i generally disagree with griefing, and I never do it myself but I see how it's an integral part of Dark Souls. If all of the griefing was taken out of DkS then alot of the fear would be relieved from your first play through as well.
Siegfried.- Addicted
- Posts : 219
Reputation : 36
Join date : 2012-09-08
Location : Camelot!
- Post n°103
Re: trolololololo
The fact that they went human. That was their mistake. They were human. Nobody is every FORCED to be human, they reverse hollowing they deserve an invasion because it's part of the game. They don't NEED help to beat it, they want help to make it easier for them because they're having to much trouble. That is what they're being punished for. Not beating the game before the invader and going human KNOWING they can get invaded.
That doesn't cut it, because there are other benefits to being human. Yes, the prospect of being invaded should be there and should be a consideration, but no-one expects that they'll be invaded by a glitcher initially. New players in particular will want to kindle as many bonfires as possible and summon other players to help them through tough bosses.
And I'd like to state once more that few of us had to put up with this while learning the game. I know I certainly made it through my first run without meeting a glitcher, and that was difficult enough as it was, even if I had cleared Demon's Souls prior.
Knight Alundil- Insomniac
- Posts : 1435
Reputation : 67
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Scotland
- Post n°104
Re: trolololololo
Tolvo wrote:They're being punished for wanting to fight other players? Excuse them for wanting to play the game rather than just being handed deaths.
It isn't presenting them a challenge or explaining PvP to them or allowing them to learn anything about the game other than that other players want to see you die. I suppose to me it just seems PvP was supposed to be more about challenging yourself and advancing in skill level rather than just giving those who glitch easy mode.
Other playes do want to see you die. I want to see every red phantom/host die. It's a pretty good lesson not to trust anyone in DkS.
Also, glitching and griefing are seperate!! Gah!!
Rynn- Chosen Undead
- Posts : 4689
Reputation : 257
Join date : 2012-01-26
- Post n°105
Re: trolololololo
Feature is locked until 100 posts. I'll rep him in your honor.Dante_000 wrote:
This sums up my opinion perfectly, I would rep you up but I have no idea how to xD
Tolvo- Town Crier
- Posts : 13287
Reputation : 542
Join date : 2012-02-01
Age : 31
Location : The Forest, Illinois
- Post n°106
Re: trolololololo
I have no problem with people invading at low levels, I'm talking about the ones using BB gear just to dominate new players.
If they are using appropriate gear that they legitimately got while I think it's a bit mean I don't consider it hurtful to the community. If they are defeating a new player its because they are dodging, spacing well, attacking at right moments. Actually showing their opponent how PvP mechanics work and teaching them the game. I consider that healthy for the communities growth.
I don't consider just killing people and teaching them nothing other than that you die, is healthy for the growth of the player.
If they are using appropriate gear that they legitimately got while I think it's a bit mean I don't consider it hurtful to the community. If they are defeating a new player its because they are dodging, spacing well, attacking at right moments. Actually showing their opponent how PvP mechanics work and teaching them the game. I consider that healthy for the communities growth.
I don't consider just killing people and teaching them nothing other than that you die, is healthy for the growth of the player.
Knight Alundil- Insomniac
- Posts : 1435
Reputation : 67
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Scotland
- Post n°107
Re: trolololololo
Siegfried. wrote:That doesn't cut it, because there are other benefits to being human. Yes, the prospect of being invaded should be there and should be a consideration, but no-one expects that they'll be invaded by a glitcher initially.
The fact there are othre benefits doesn't really change his point. It helps it. The chance of being invaded is the price you pay for all the benefits being human gives you.
And i'm really not sure if we're talking about griefing or glitching anymore :|
Peaceful Wollyhop- Addicted
- Posts : 263
Reputation : 9
Join date : 2012-09-09
Age : 29
Location : England
- Post n°108
Re: trolololololo
Also I apolagise if by making this post I have brought the worst out in people i'm sorry ^_^
Knight Alundil- Insomniac
- Posts : 1435
Reputation : 67
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Scotland
- Post n°109
Re: trolololololo
Tolvo wrote:I have no problem with people invading at low levels, I'm talking about the ones using BB gear just to dominate new players.
Totally agree 100%.
If they are using appropriate gear that they legitimately got while I think it's a bit mean I don't consider it hurtful to the community. If they are defeating a new player its because they are dodging, spacing well, attacking at right moments. Actually showing their opponent how PvP mechanics work and teaching them the game. I consider that healthy for the communities growth.
I don't consider just killing people and teaching them nothing other than that you die, is healthy for the growth of the player.
What about players who play through the whole game legit at level 10 for example and get the high end gear then return to the burg to grief?
Knight Alundil- Insomniac
- Posts : 1435
Reputation : 67
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Scotland
- Post n°110
Re: trolololololo
Peaceful Wollyhop wrote:Also I apolagise if by making this post I have brought the worst out in people i'm sorry ^_^
It's a public forum bro, everyone's in control of their own comments Feel no guilt
Tolvo- Town Crier
- Posts : 13287
Reputation : 542
Join date : 2012-02-01
Age : 31
Location : The Forest, Illinois
- Post n°111
Re: trolololololo
I don't understand them. They are willing to go that far but still feel the need to use such gear on low levels? I suppose I wouldn't call them hurtful, but I'd say I don't really understand their intent with doing it. Similar to if a person does a level 10 challenge run, but wants to summon help. It just doesn't compute.
Siegfried.- Addicted
- Posts : 219
Reputation : 36
Join date : 2012-09-08
Location : Camelot!
- Post n°112
Re: trolololololo
Knight Alundil wrote:What about players who play through the whole game legit at level 10 for example and get the high end gear then return to the burg to grief?
Personally, I'd consider this just as bad as glitching, in the same way I'd consider glitching for the sake of a backup weapon in case of griefing invaders to be okay.
A player who has a complete run of the game will no doubt have a bottomless box full of cool weapons to use and try out in a context where weapon upgrades haven't been unlocked, but they'd rather have a supreme advantage, not advance their skills and understanding of the game with a slightly different playthrough.
Knight Alundil- Insomniac
- Posts : 1435
Reputation : 67
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Scotland
- Post n°113
Re: trolololololo
I'd agree with you both that it's a messed up thing to do, but I feel it's totally earned. I would never do it, would be a complete waste of time but if someone did choose to do it I wouldn't fault them for it.
Tolvo- Town Crier
- Posts : 13287
Reputation : 542
Join date : 2012-02-01
Age : 31
Location : The Forest, Illinois
- Post n°114
Re: trolololololo
I of course do think it is morally a bit reprehensible, but it seems to fit with the design of Dark Souls more. Challenging one's self to get rewards.
goober0331- Addicted
- Posts : 211
Reputation : -5
Join date : 2012-02-22
Age : 32
Location : In a bong
- Post n°115
Re: trolololololo
If someone is good enough at Dark Souls to complete a low lvl run, and thus have access to high-lvl gear, why torment low lvls?
If they have that much pride in being able to complete that run, why not relish in that pride by fighting higher lvl opposition?
If they have that much pride in being able to complete that run, why not relish in that pride by fighting higher lvl opposition?
Knight Alundil- Insomniac
- Posts : 1435
Reputation : 67
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Scotland
- Post n°116
Re: trolololololo
goober0331 wrote:If someone is good enough at Dark Souls to complete a low lvl run, and thus have access to high-lvl gear, why torment low lvls?
If they have that much pride in being able to complete that run, why not relish in that pride by fighting higher lvl opposition?
Alot of people just like to feel powerful.
OrnsteinFanBoy- Addicted
- Posts : 162
Reputation : 2
Join date : 2012-09-25
Age : 33
Location : Odnol Rona - UK
- Post n°117
Re: trolololololo
The argument that "That's just their way of having fun so let them" totally falls down on its face when you think of it in the context of the community. People that grief are making the game a negative experience when it shouldn't be. The people being griefed paid for the game too and should be able to enjoy it without experienced players with high level gear destroying them in the first half hour of their game.
There's a person on the end of the toon and your being uncool to him. If you saw someone punch a guy in the street "for fun" you wouldn't say "oh it's just that guys way for enjoying himself so let him do it", you'd slam him for being an Ahole just like we're slammming griefers
There's a person on the end of the toon and your being uncool to him. If you saw someone punch a guy in the street "for fun" you wouldn't say "oh it's just that guys way for enjoying himself so let him do it", you'd slam him for being an Ahole just like we're slammming griefers
Knight Alundil- Insomniac
- Posts : 1435
Reputation : 67
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Scotland
- Post n°118
Re: trolololololo
OrnsteinFanBoy wrote:The argument that "That's just their way of having fun so let them" totally falls down on its face when you think of it in the context of the community. People that grief are making the game a negative experience when it shouldn't be. The people being griefed paid for the game too and should be able to enjoy it without experienced players with high level gear destroying them in the first half hour of their game.
There's a person on the end of the toon and your being uncool to him. If you saw someone punch a guy in the street "for fun" you wouldn't say "oh it's just that guys way for enjoying himself so let him do it", you'd slam him for being an Ahole just like we're slammming griefers
If you put that scenario in the context of Dark Souls the guy getting punched in the street would have to have some switch that he turned on to accept the fight (Hollow/Human). So no, I wouldn't call him an ******* if the guy walked around with a big sign saying "im up for a fight".
Edit: Sorry didn't adress your whole post. You said it makes it a negative experience for new players. Sorry man it didn't do that to me. When i got invaded and destroyed at low levels i was just like "***, this games hard. Guess what everyone was saying and the entire marketing campaign before the game was right, it is brutal."
Last edited by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
bmurn- Addicted
- Posts : 281
Reputation : 27
Join date : 2012-04-10
Location : the Dead Burg (formerly "undead" but now renamed after a significant effort at regentrification.)
- Post n°119
Re: trolololololo
Interesting debate. It is obviously a challenge to get people to see a different side, especially when the definitions are ambiguous at best. I think there is a continuum of actual actions involved while there is also a continuum of intentions. Everyone
picks a point on those two continuums as the point they think someone has gone
too far.
On the actions you would have the following (notcomplete): A skilled player invading
new players > A player with better gear invading new players > A player with
glitched gear invading new players > A player utilizing other glitches (dragon head, etc) to invade new players > A player hacking the game and invading new players.
On the intentions I think it is something like this: Trying to have fun with another player > Just trying to scare some new players and make the game hard for them > Taking pleasure in the thought of creating a frustrating experience for someone else
> Trying to ruin someone’s experience.
Personally, I think the intentions are worse than the actions, as the thought of trying to
do something purely to ruin someone’s experience, or make it terribly frustrating to them is in line with getting pleasure from bullying. That is unnecessary in my opinion and a hindrance to the game, the community and society (to grandiose?).
Unfortunately the intentions are not readily apparent and we can often only judge on the actions we see in front of us. This is where I think the debate is most clouded. My thought is anyone that invades low level players using higher level gear than what is available in the area is by their actions indicating that they are fine ruining someone else’s experience. I think that is bad, as well as anywhere on the continuum beyond that.
Yes, people are allowed to play a game in a way that is enjoyable to them and they
are responsible to try to create the most enjoyment for themselves, but they are also responsible for the impact of their actions on others. Just as in life we are responsible for the impact of our actions on others (definitely too grandiose).
So in summary and to conclude, love everyone, don’t ruin people’s days. Darksouls
good. Fire Bad.
picks a point on those two continuums as the point they think someone has gone
too far.
On the actions you would have the following (notcomplete): A skilled player invading
new players > A player with better gear invading new players > A player with
glitched gear invading new players > A player utilizing other glitches (dragon head, etc) to invade new players > A player hacking the game and invading new players.
On the intentions I think it is something like this: Trying to have fun with another player > Just trying to scare some new players and make the game hard for them > Taking pleasure in the thought of creating a frustrating experience for someone else
> Trying to ruin someone’s experience.
Personally, I think the intentions are worse than the actions, as the thought of trying to
do something purely to ruin someone’s experience, or make it terribly frustrating to them is in line with getting pleasure from bullying. That is unnecessary in my opinion and a hindrance to the game, the community and society (to grandiose?).
Unfortunately the intentions are not readily apparent and we can often only judge on the actions we see in front of us. This is where I think the debate is most clouded. My thought is anyone that invades low level players using higher level gear than what is available in the area is by their actions indicating that they are fine ruining someone else’s experience. I think that is bad, as well as anywhere on the continuum beyond that.
Yes, people are allowed to play a game in a way that is enjoyable to them and they
are responsible to try to create the most enjoyment for themselves, but they are also responsible for the impact of their actions on others. Just as in life we are responsible for the impact of our actions on others (definitely too grandiose).
So in summary and to conclude, love everyone, don’t ruin people’s days. Darksouls
good. Fire Bad.
Last edited by bmurn on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
Knight Alundil- Insomniac
- Posts : 1435
Reputation : 67
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Scotland
- Post n°120
Re: trolololololo
Edit: Gah got all excited and replied before I read your whole post. *edit of shame*
Last edited by Knight Alundil on Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Tolvo- Town Crier
- Posts : 13287
Reputation : 542
Join date : 2012-02-01
Age : 31
Location : The Forest, Illinois
- Post n°121
Re: trolololololo
I don't think physical violence equates well in comparison, since it's a social thing and not a physically harming them. Emotional harm is a better comparison, and probably the most apt one since it can be considered emotional harm.
Bmurn that's a pretty well thought out way to look at it.
Bmurn that's a pretty well thought out way to look at it.
Dante_000- Addicted
- Posts : 125
Reputation : 15
Join date : 2012-09-12
Age : 31
- Post n°122
Re: trolololololo
Rynn wrote:Feature is locked until 100 posts. I'll rep him in your honor.Dante_000 wrote:
This sums up my opinion perfectly, I would rep you up but I have no idea how to xD
Thanks, I owe you, Now to get my posts to 100 >.>
FruitPunchNinja- Revived
- Posts : 2770
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2012-03-12
Age : 35
Location : East Coast , USA
- Post n°123
Re: trolololololo
It kind of annoys me that you guys paint a picture of invaders being the only ones who abuse glitches, just like how people act like forest hunters do no wrong. If i use the orbs in the first few areas at low level, guess what i will be met with? Hosts with elemental weapons, and usually a summon with elemental weapons. Both sides do it, you can't act like invaders are the only people who abuse glitches. I also tend to see hosts using the dragon head glitch far more, cause they are able to do it while you spawn.
The glitches suck, we know this. It's pretty obvious people are getting upset and opinionated because this poll was completely biased. This game was made to troll people, if you seriously think it wasn't i'm not sure what to say. New players should just play offline if they don't like invaders, because having summons and not worrying about invaders is just lame and way to easy. There's a reason there's no easy mode, it's *** DARK SOULS!
The glitches suck, we know this. It's pretty obvious people are getting upset and opinionated because this poll was completely biased. This game was made to troll people, if you seriously think it wasn't i'm not sure what to say. New players should just play offline if they don't like invaders, because having summons and not worrying about invaders is just lame and way to easy. There's a reason there's no easy mode, it's *** DARK SOULS!
Rynn- Chosen Undead
- Posts : 4689
Reputation : 257
Join date : 2012-01-26
- Post n°124
Re: trolololololo
if he can't tell he is ruining someone elses experience, he isn't mature enough to purchase this game.Knight Alundil wrote:Edit: Gah got all excited and replied before I read your whole post. *edit of shame*
Knight Alundil- Insomniac
- Posts : 1435
Reputation : 67
Join date : 2012-04-09
Location : Scotland
- Post n°125
Re: trolololololo
K an actual response to Bmurn and I didn't jump the gun this time:
You say that it's about being responsible on the impact you have on others. I just think of this in a Dark Souls context and griefing low levels doesn't seem messed up to me. It seems totally appropriate to the world it's set in.
You say that it's about being responsible on the impact you have on others. I just think of this in a Dark Souls context and griefing low levels doesn't seem messed up to me. It seems totally appropriate to the world it's set in.
|
|