Dark Souls Planar Map...so far

https://i.servimg.com/u/f10/17/43/65/68/darkso11.jpg

I hope this works.

This is what I've come up with so far (as far as DS1...DS2 might change it with additional information). The world of Dark Souls exists within 3 Physical Planes, as well as 1 Mutable Plane, those being (in no particular order, even though I'm numbering them):

Physical Plane 1: The Material Plane. This is where Humans exist after the war with the Dragons and the Age of Fire has commenced. It is, in my opinion, of the following properties:
It has Earth-like gravity.
It is mutable only through physical manipulation (i.e. you can only make a sword with the proper materials, such as steel or iron, but not out of nothing).
Magic exists but cannot change the physical attributes (i.e. lead cannot be turned to gold).

Physical Plane 2: Kiln of the First Flame. This is where souls were forged for the undead. Four of which were Lord Souls, made for those with enough power/ambition to wield them and usher in the Age of Fire. 3 were made to bring about the AoF, and 1 was the precursor to the next Age, which is, of course, the Dark Soul. It is of the following properties:
It has Earth-like gravity.
It is physical, as well as, magically mutable. This can be seen in the fact that when Gwyn linked the flame the power released was enough to melt the environment and render most of the plane to ash. It is magically mutable in that it was most likely the first origination of mankind's souls.
In my opinion, the magical nature of the Plane would allow magical mutation of elements, given that the wielder had proper experience and power.

Physical Plane 3: The Abyss. This Plane is somewhat a dichotomy in its attributes. It exists as a shadow to other two Planes. Its existence is completely necessary as light cannot exist without darkness. Thus the disparity. It is possible that when the Age of Ancients was in progress, the Material Plane was dominant, repressing the other two planes allowing them to mature. It has the following properties (from what I can figure):
It has an Earth-like gravity, however, it is subjective to the being that is observing it. With proper training and/or transcendence of it is possible to change the nature of the Abyss.
It is completely mutable in that only itself can be manipulated. For example, a material from one of the other two Planes could not be changed by the Abyss, but an object OF the Abyss COULD BE.
It is, as well as, is not, magical. This is why the Abyss is dichotomous, to me, it is that which comes before. The magic does not exist, but the potential for it does. If one can manipulate the potential, they could create whatever they needed.

Mutable Plane 1: Time. I hesitate to call this a Plane. It may be that it is merely a Dimension. It acts in every way as we understand it. EXCEPT, as Solaire explains, in Lordran, where it flows differently. What makes me think it is a Plane though, is that it works on the others, creating what could be considered bends, allowing heroes of one time to enter the time of others. I believe that time is what I would consider a PURE Plane in that it simply IS. One cannot reside outside of it but, as we see with the DLC, it can be manipulated with intent. Which is how Manus grabs the PC and drags him/her to Oolacile past. It has no attributes that I can think of, rather it can only be described as a still lake rather than the more common "river" since one can go backward or forward.

This is a really good theory, it explains a lot, but ive always tought that all the well, plane division begun with the link of the flame. As we know, the disparity brings light with darkness, and life with death.
In the world of the ancient dragons, it was all balanced, until the souls of the lords were used to bring power to mankind and link the fire. This is what happened:
By linking the fire and starting the Age of Fire, the world was unbalanced, and the dark manifested in one peculiar form: The Abyss. Without light to imprison it, the Abyss became larger, as the Age of Fire proliferated.

"In time, fire will fade, and only dark will remain"

In time, the forces between the abyss and the man world will balance, creating again a "balanced" world. Thats why Gwyn linked the fire using almost all his power, to reverse this effect one more time, and thats why we need to link the fire. To preserve the unbalanced worlds, to preserver the Age of Fire. To preserve mankind. At least the known mankind.
But then again to the plane topic, the kiln works as a plane intersection, a core-like world. But if we take this as correct, maybe.. maybe theres other "kiln". The dark homologue. The very deep abyss.

What do we need to "link" this other kiln? Maybe we dont need the fire, neither the lord's souls. Maybe, we just need the Dark Soul. A pure mass of humanity, the most powerful element aside from the souls, but maybe the one who is the very counterpart of it. With the power of the Dark Soul we maybe can balance again the worlds, forever. Who knows. This is a good topic.

Thank you, I thought long and hard about this, lol. The way I see it, all the Planes were one during the time of the Dragons (pretend all the circles are overlaid in the order: Material > Abyss > Kiln). The fire HAD to be there already to just pop up. Before it did, humans were just soulless hollows in the abyss as seen in the opening scene. As the fire emerges up through the Abyss, certain undead find great powers withing the flame. As I think more on it, I think we should disregard souls as objects they actually found within the flame but rather the potential the flame found in them and coalesced into being.

I digress, anyhow, as the Lord's Souls are formed the very act of the Flame emerging through the Abyss is the beginning of the separation of the Planes, which of course, is Disparity. Where they used to be one, now they are in schism to one another. As the Flame burns, humanity becomes stronger, but to keep things balanced the Flame creates the Dark Soul. The Dark Soul is the complete opposite of everything the Flame is which is why it is singularly so powerful. The pygmy is furtive and forgotten as darkness is wanton to be forgotten in the presence of a very powerful light.

The problem I run into though is, what caused the Flame to rise through the Abyss? Were Dragons behind it? Seath perhaps? Or maybe it's simply cyclical and has its own rhythm and tides? Or perhaps the Flame is symbolic of a creator being like the One True God?

Thats a good question. But ive always tought that the introduction is more like a brief of story, like a biblical passage. I think there wasnt a "past" between the disparity.

Hm, I don't know, I think there'd have to be some sort of time progression otherwise there wouldn't be terms like Ancients, and it would definitely suck to be a Dragon, existing in one point of non-time for what could only be described as an infinite second. lol

alchemydesign wrote:
The problem I run into though is, what caused the Flame to rise through the Abyss? Were Dragons behind it? Seath perhaps? Or maybe it's simply cyclical and has its own rhythm and tides? Or perhaps the Flame is symbolic of a creator being like the One True God?

Flame God Flann?

Sentiel wrote:

alchemydesign wrote:
The problem I run into though is, what caused the Flame to rise through the Abyss? Were Dragons behind it? Seath perhaps? Or maybe it's simply cyclical and has its own rhythm and tides? Or perhaps the Flame is symbolic of a creator being like the One True God?

Flame God Flann?

Well, that would be possible, and it's funny that you mention that as I just watched ENB's take on him and I'm currently looking up as much info as I can on the name Flann is that it's Irish-Gaelic meaning "red"...which Flame is...lol. Also, there is room for a lot of confusion because we don't know what flame he is a God of. Is he a God of THE flame? If he was why did Gwyn have to sacrifice himself and why did Flann leave with the other Gods? This leads me to believe he is simply a minor deity. Being master of simple elemental fire.

With Witch of Izalith, specializing in Fire Magic, as shown in the opening, if not outright creating it herself, if there would be a diety labeled as a God of Flame, it should be her (Godess in that case).

With the lore heavily revolving around Fire and Dark, if there is someone called God of Flame, I presume he's gotta be some hotshot, even above Gwyn.

I don't think so, personally, Gwyn's power is of the Sun which can be argued to be the most pure representation of Fire, however, it manifests itself as lightning (read: Sunlight Blade miracle). And interestingly enough, it's a bit dichotomous that the witches wield fire in the cinematics since Pyromancy didn't exist until AFTER the Witch tried to recreate the Kiln's flame. But then...they ARE witches, so it may have simply been an innate skill and wasn't accessible on a wider level until they released the chaos flame.

And not to hijack my own thread here, but since we've brought up lightning, I'm going to go ahead and just throw it out there that Solaire IS, in my opinion (and I'm rather comfortable in claiming that I'm right lol ) Gwyn's first born, the God of War. Now, I know this has been debated to death but all the clues leave only the one conclusion:

1. His name is Solaire, base word SOL; Latin for Sun, also in mythology Sol is the Roman God who personifies the Sun.

2. Pretty much the spokesman for Warriors of Sunlight

3. The miracle Great Lightning Spear: "Miracle passed down to those bound by the Warrior of Sunlight covenant. Hurl giant lightning spear.
The weapon of the God of War, who inherited the sunlight of Lord Gwyn, but had respect only for arms, and nothing else." This wouldn't mean much, but for the description on Solaire's armor...

4. Solaire's Iron Armor set: "Helm of Solaire of Astora, Knight of Sunlight. Of high quality, but lacking any particular powers.
Armor of Solaire of Astora, Knight of Sunlight. The large holy smbol of the Sun while powerless, was painted by Solaire himself.
Bracelets of Solaire of Astora, Knight of Sunlight. Of high quality, but lacking any particular powers.
Leggings of Solaire of Astora, Knight of Sunlight. Of high quality, but lacking any particular powers.
Solaire's incredible prowess must have come from rigorous training alone, for his equipment exhibits no special traits." Stay with me now, I'll come back to the armor...

5. Solaire's Sunlight Straight Sword: "This standard longsword, belonging to Solaire of Astora, is of high
quality, is well-forged, and has been kept in good repair. "
"Easy to use and dependable, but unlikely to live up to its grandiose name." Alright, we are almost there, just a little further...

6. Sunlight Blade Miracle: "Miracle wielded by Lord Gwyn's firstborn. Boost right weapon with rays of Sun.
The power of sunlight, manifested as lightning, is very effective
against dragons. When the eldest son was stripped of his deific status,
he left this on his father's coffin, perhaps as a final farewell."

Alright, now, let us put it all together. The first born of Gwyn, God of War, fought with his father and the knights against the Dragons at the beginning of the Age of Fire. Being a God of War he would be naturally skilled, but to keep skill honed one must train continuously, ask any athlete. Okay, I postulate that the reason the first born was stripped of his power is pride, pure hubris. The miracle Great Lightning Spear states that the first born inherited this power from his father, Gwyn, but he did not respect it, he held his martial prowess as greater than the Lightning Spear. If you were the son of the greatest God of Gods and you turned away from the power divine, I think that would be tantamount to slapping Gwyn in the face.

Okay, Sunlight Straight Sword, this piece of equipment is purposefully misleading making the player think it is telling you that it has ALWAYS been thus, but we must look back to the miracle Sunlight Blade. It states that "when the son was stripped of his deific status, he left this on his father's coffin, perhaps as a final farewell." Well, the Sunlight Straight Sword cannot live up to its grandiose name if its weilder stripped its magic to return to his father as a final farewell (symbolically stating that his skills were such that he did not even need the enhanced weapon).

Solaire's armor is also misleading, but only because of one word, "MUST" which appears on his armor's leggings...it states that his "...incredible prowess must have come from rigorous training alone..." now this is misleading because there is no emphasis at all. It can change depending on how you emphasize the word "must". You could read it as a literal, such as, 1 plus 1 must equal 2. Or, you could read it as a hypothesis, such as, If a light is turned on, it must work off of electricity (while true, it is merely speculation if you only have a simple working knowledge of electricity). With that said, I believe that the emphasis should be placed as the second. The narrator of the piece is not sure, but theorizing that since there is no obvious magical properties, he must not be the first born.

Let me ask you this, if you were a God of War and you were stripped of your powers and forced to live as a human, given our knowledge of the peoples of the foreign lands, which land would you choose to live out your life? Perhaps a martial land with holy warriors, honorable knights such as ohhhhh perhaps Astora? Or would you go to a place that's more popular for its shady characters such as Carim? Thus the first born becomes Solaire...of Astora, choosing to live his life in the martial lands where honorable warriors train, and smiths such as Andre weild fantastic weapons (which is the reason you removed from godhood anyhow because you favor them).

His shield states that he painted his sun there himself. Naturally he would paint a sun on his shield, if you look at shields from the more medieval feudal eras, you see that shields were blazoned with the knight's family crests. Solaire would paint the sun to show that he is of the sun, He would not, of course, need that when he was a God because it's not like anyone wouldn't have known him as Gwyn's son.

:Now, I hope I've made my point here cause I'm tired lol...and it's not really important to this thread, but I've been watching videos about crazy nonsense like people thinking Ornstein is the first born and I simply had to share

I've always thought that Solaire is the firstborn of Gwyn. Like Thor, when Odin exiles him he must seek his own power, became a hero.
Like Solaire. He is seeking his own sun. His power. God bless him

PRAISE THE SUN

S-U-N-BR-Oh Power *does the Vanilla Ice dance from TMNT 2*

I mostly agree with what you wrote about Solaire, but I have two questions about this.

1. If as you say Solaire held his physical skills above his dietical, then how come he uses them?

2. Why is he using Lighting Spear instead of Great Lightning Spear?
The Covenant gives you the Great version with 10 Sunlight Medals. If Solaire is indeed son of Gwyn, he should logically be also the leader of the Warrior of Sunlight Covenant, thus he should be able to use GLS.

Other than that I completely agree.

Well, he is first and foremost a warrior, and as such he would be likely to use any tool at his disposal to achieve victory, even if it means using Lightning Spear. As for your second question, it is of my opinion that he isn't the leader of the covenant, not as far as say political power, but more a spiritual leader, I imagine he would view it more as a brotherhood, much like the Arthurian Round-Table where all the Knight-Brothers are equals. He does not use the GLS because it's not his, *note, the following is opinion and not verifiable, but most likely imho* he inherited the GLS from Gwyn, but he did not respect it (actual miracle text) he probably forsook it in favor of his martial skills. By denying his inheritance he denied his father, thus leading to his excommunication from the Gods.

It still doesn't make any sense to use a lesser form of a spell, if he is capable of using the greater version.

Since he can use the lesser, he should be able to use the greater as well.


But that's just nitpicking really. As I said, I agree with your theory and like it.

Lol, thanks, but really I don't think he CAN use it. I think he gave it up. It's like a child who comes of age in an aristocratic family and turns away the family inheritance/business/lifestyle, etc. If you follow. By giving it up, he locked himself out of it.

His name,armor, and skills are all pretty irrelevenat. Everything that Solaire can do, we can do better; we can hit harder, stay up longer, and hurl lightning better. In fact, there's information that is harder to refute that supports the player being the firstborn.

1. Killing Solaire doesn't kick you out of the sunBros, or stop you from using the Sunlight Spear. It seems fairly obvious that the covenant-only spells take power from the god of that covenant, yet you can use the SLL spear with Solaire dead.

2. Solaire doesn't teach/give you the Lightning Spear miracles. In fact, nobody does. Your character just makes an offering and KNOWS. Almost as if remembering...

3. Kaathe claims that Gwyn has "blurred your past." While the snake is likely lying, people use him as evidence often enough, so I'll use this. Why would Gwyn blur the past of some random hollow who shouldn't have even been alive yet? Why do the black knights come to your cell in the Asylum looking for you, a random shmuck?

4. How come Gwyndolin doesn't do anything to Solaire (that we know of) in Anor Londo? Heck, Ornstein doesn't even do anything if you summon Solaire, and it would be foolish to claim the firstborn never met Ornstein.

Killing Nito also doesn't kick the player out of the Gravelord covenant or make him or her unable to use the Gravelord miracles. The method for learning the spells Chaos Fireball, Blade of the Darkmoon, and most other covenant rewards are gained through offering up the relevant item. I think saying that just because it's a statue for the Sunlight Warriors instead of a cat, skeleton or half-demon is a significant stretch at best.
Kaathe wasn't talking about the chosen undead's past specifically; he was talking about the past of Humanity and their relationship to the Gods as a whole. Outside of those who were actually present for those events, there is nothing in the game that suggests anyone else knows of Humanity's ties to the Dark and inherent difference from the Gods. Rather than for the player individually, the context of the entire conversation leads me to think that he's saying that the history most of the world is basing his or her beliefs off of information that was intentionally skewed by Gwyn. Considering the dialect of English that Kaathe uses, the word 'your' can be either singular or plural. For the rest of the conversation, Kaathe is talking about the relationship between the Gods and Man as a whole, not as Gwyn and the Chosen Undead.
We also don't know that the Black Knights came there for the player at all. In fact, being empty suits of armor that are filled only with the will to kill demons, (and apparently the player) combined with the knowledge that they were originally supposed to be wandering enemies, I think they just migrated there for the same reason any of them migrated anywhere; that's what was in front of them. They're aimless wanderers.
Gwyndolin seems to not do anything to anyone in Anor Londo unless he or she messes with his plans or comes directly to him or her. As far as we know, Solaire does neither. And Ornstein DOES do something-he and Solaire go at each other at the earliest opportunity.
We also don't know that the Firstborn ever met Orstein. We don't know when Ornstein appeared (he may not have been present during the war with the dragons; we don't actually know) or when the Firstborn was actually born. He may have been born, grown up and left before Ornstein was one of the Four Knights or before Ornstein was even born.
And if the player was the Firstborn, then why is he or she so ignorant of Lordran? Why is he or she at most level 5 when the game starts? Why, then, can the player be a physically weak mage or cleric when the Firstborn was the God of War? Between both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, I've gotten the impression that FromSoft likes making the player be a 'random' person chosen by destiny, convenience or coincidence, not an already-special person, which is a fairly popular backstory for main characters in fantasy settings, possibly even more so in Japan. (I've certain played and read a lot of material that supports that that originated in Japan)

Acarnatia wrote:Killing Nito also doesn't kick the player out of the Gravelord covenant or make him or her unable to use the Gravelord miracles. The method for learning the spells Chaos Fireball, Blade of the Darkmoon, and most other covenant rewards are gained through offering up the relevant item. I think saying that just because it's a statue for the Sunlight Warriors instead of a cat, skeleton or half-demon is a significant stretch at best.
Kaathe wasn't talking about the chosen undead's past specifically; he was talking about the past of Humanity and their relationship to the Gods as a whole. Outside of those who were actually present for those events, there is nothing in the game that suggests anyone else knows of Humanity's ties to the Dark and inherent difference from the Gods. Rather than for the player individually, the context of the entire conversation leads me to think that he's saying that the history most of the world is basing his or her beliefs off of information that was intentionally skewed by Gwyn. Considering the dialect of English that Kaathe uses, the word 'your' can be either singular or plural. For the rest of the conversation, Kaathe is talking about the relationship between the Gods and Man as a whole, not as Gwyn and the Chosen Undead.
We also don't know that the Black Knights came there for the player at all. In fact, being empty suits of armor that are filled only with the will to kill demons, (and apparently the player) combined with the knowledge that they were originally supposed to be wandering enemies, I think they just migrated there for the same reason any of them migrated anywhere; that's what was in front of them. They're aimless wanderers.
Gwyndolin seems to not do anything to anyone in Anor Londo unless he or she messes with his plans or comes directly to him or her. As far as we know, Solaire does neither. And Ornstein DOES do something-he and Solaire go at each other at the earliest opportunity.
We also don't know that the Firstborn ever met Orstein. We don't know when Ornstein appeared (he may not have been present during the war with the dragons; we don't actually know) or when the Firstborn was actually born. He may have been born, grown up and left before Ornstein was one of the Four Knights or before Ornstein was even born.
And if the player was the Firstborn, then why is he or she so ignorant of Lordran? Why is he or she at most level 5 when the game starts? Why, then, can the player be a physically weak mage or cleric when the Firstborn was the God of War? Between both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, I've gotten the impression that FromSoft likes making the player be a 'random' person chosen by destiny, convenience or coincidence, not an already-special person, which is a fairly popular backstory for main characters in fantasy settings, possibly even more so in Japan. (I've certain played and read a lot of material that supports that that originated in Japan)

I'd forgotten about Nito's death affecting things, but he IS the god of death after all. His essence may linger and continue to empower his servants; but at least he is there to teach his subjects his miracles, unlike the Sunlight Bros, who literally just hold up a medallion in the air and instantly know a spell.

Not even going to argue the Kaathe part, as I believe he lies about everything. I really only added that part as a little bit of extra evidence.

For Solaire's connections, do you really think Gwyndolin would do NOTHING if his exiled brother returned? Whether he would try to welcome him home or try to punish him for the sin of returning, I can't see him doing NOTHING.

As for Ornstein, he was the captain of the Four Knights, and Gough ( at least) fought in the Dragon Wars, implying that they all might have. Certainly, it's unlikely that Ornstein would have earned the title of "Dragonslayer" if he would have become a soldier AFTER the dragons had died out. And, as teh closest thing to royalty below the actual royal family, it's likely that he would have met them in order to guard them or other such duties. And as for Solaire and Ornstein duking it out, that's just because of the way the AI works. Ornstein charges, Solaire registers a threat, and retaliates. It's easily possible to rush ahead of Solaire and snag Ornstein.

As for being able to choose different classes, the Firstborn had their divinity stripped away. They went from being the heir to the greatest king on earth, to an exiled outcast. That type of thing changes a person; whether they become filled with hate and try to avenge themselves by any means necessary or become humble and more open to new ideas, it's easy to see how a warrior and a soldier would choose to expand their skill base.

Actually, I think Gwyndolin WOULD do nothing, as lore tells us the first born was stricken from the annuls of history, meaning that to Gwyndolin, the first born is nothing, in fact, less than nothing. There is no love lost there. If you read all of the descriptions carefully you can infer that it was, in point of fact, the other Gods that removed the first born from grace as Gwyn had already linked the flames and been considered dead (we know this because the first-born placed his Sunlight Blade miracle on his fathers Sarcophagus). Most likely it was because he refused to take up his father's mantle as the Lord of Sunlight (see GLS miracle, the first born doesnt respect it).

alchemydesign wrote:Actually, I think Gwyndolin WOULD do nothing, as lore tells us the first born was stricken from the annuls of history, meaning that to Gwyndolin, the first born is nothing, in fact, less than nothing. There is no love lost there. If you read all of the descriptions carefully you can infer that it was, in point of fact, the other Gods that removed the first born from grace as Gwyn had already linked the flames and been considered dead (we know this because the first-born placed his Sunlight Blade miracle on his fathers Sarcophagus). Most likely it was because he refused to take up his father's mantle as the Lord of Sunlight (see GLS miracle, the first born doesnt respect it).

He wasn't removed from the annuls (we don't even know what they are); he LOST them. He had his divinity removed from his failure.

Gwyndolin is a proud man who relentlessly hunts down those who have, in his eyes, sinned. You don't think his failure of an exiled brother wouldn't count in that list if he returned to Anor Londo?

No, I think he wouldn't. Gwyndolin punishes those who do something against him or that seriously messes with the 'honor' of the Gods. Note that even after obtaining the Lordvessal and proving that he or she is about to become the next person to Link the Fire, Gwyndolin still doesn't even let the chosen undead know he or she exists unless they are about to enter Gwyn's tomb with the Darkmoon Seance Ring. Apparently, a person has to do something VERY serious to get Gwyndolin's attention. Furthermore, even if you're right and Gwyndolin is hostile towards the chosen undead, then why doesn't he attack you on sight? Why doesn't he mention anything about it to the player? Considering how much he values at least the appearances of the Gods, (if not actually his family) it seems strange that Gwyndolin won't let his own other brother visit their father's tomb. If the chosen undead is the Firstborn, then Gwyndolin's actions make no sense unless he is completely oblivious to the chosen's undead identity of the Firstborn.

ANNALS



1
: a record of events arranged in yearly sequence

2
: historical records : chronicles

3
: records of the activities of an organization


Hm, you're right, The Ring of the Sun's Firstborn says he LOST the Annals, not was stricken from them:

Lord Gwyn's firstborn, who inherited the
sunlight, once wore this ancient ring.
Boosts the strength of miracles.

Lord Gwyn's firstborn was a god of war,
but his foolishness led to a loss of the
annals, and rescinding of his deific status.
Today, even his name is not known.
So he lost the history...history of what? Of the Gods? How they came to be? How the wars went? Hm, things are sooo vast and hard to keep track of. But an interesting aside, some were saying how Ceaseless Discharge was perhaps the Sun's Firstborn, he also was foolish and dropped his ring...Just saying, I don't believe Ceaseless is the Firstborn, but just the rings descriptions are an interesting draw



Thanks guys for the interesting discussions. ^_^