Great Axe and Great Hammer viability?

How viable are Great Axes and Great Hammers in PVP? And I mean general, all purpose, not just for criticals. If they ARE viable, what roles do they fill and what tactics make them effective other than a few cheap tricks?
Only having started playing this game in early January, I'm still trying to get a good grasp on different weapons and tactics, and I would like some input from those who are more experienced than I.

They're viable if you take advantage of their fast roll attacks. They're more viable at high SL where you can meet the minimum requirements, have some poise while fast rolling and high HP. HP is the most important stat because most people will bs fish your slow swings, especially roll bs.

What about more specific techniques and strategies to use in certain situations? A "perfect" build won't get you anywhere if you don't know how to use the tools granted to you.
I'm looking for more tactical viability, rather than theoretical and build viability.

The main thing with a great hammer or great axe is patience. If you're coming from things like a curved sword or a katana you'll have a bit of a learning curve to deal with.
Like Wyrm said, the rolling attacks, especially the 2 handed rolling attack of a great hammer, are very much viable.
The other attacks however are slow vertical moving attacks (a roll bser's wet dream).
You don't need to fast roll for either weapon imo, but both weapon classes require some sort of support for certain situations.

Both weapon types are incredibly strong and can dole out some serious damage, but they need things to make them really viable.

Sneezer wrote:What about more specific techniques and strategies to use in certain situations? A "perfect" build won't get you anywhere if you don't know how to use the tools granted to you.
I'm looking for more tactical viability, rather than theoretical and build viability.

Neither can't stunlock, so R1 attacks are merely used as luring and maybe lucky shots. You'll be using the roll attacks more often for offense. The 2H roll attack of the great hammer can't be parried and breaks a lot of poise. You'll mostly be stunning enemies with those attacks. One cheap but useful tactic is stunning with roll attack and then walk towards their back and bs. Counter bs is very satisfying because most people will bs fish you. This is assuming your build fast rolls.

WyrmHero wrote:R1 attacks are merely used as luring and maybe lucky shots.

I actually disagree. I land regular r1s very often and they are not lucky hits. Mostly they are trades with different dex weapon running attacks and other attacks that won't break my poise. And i win those trades if it's not a buffed weapon.

I'd say you should experiment and learn all the situations when you can use those regular r1s. They deal a ton of damage. Just don't try to stunlock with them. Also, learn when to use jumping attacks. Great hammer jump attacks deal more damage than many weapons deal with a backstab. They are risky, but surprisingly rarely punished with a bs unless your opponent has dark wood grain ring. Great hammers also have devastating criticals, so it is not a bad idea to learn different parry and backstab methods.

It is also a good idea to have at least one alternative way of dealing damage to your opponent in addition to your main weapon. Personally, i usually have one or two of these: Light crossbow, fire surge, great combsution, composite bow, dung pies, poison throwing knives.

Oh, and one more thing: It feels so damn good to beat someone with a huge stick. Without backstab fishing obviously. Great club <3

Sneezer wrote:What about more specific techniques and strategies to use in certain situations? A "perfect" build won't get you anywhere if you don't know how to use the tools granted to you.
I'm looking for more tactical viability, rather than theoretical and build viability.

I dont really understand what this means, unless you're talking about dead angling and how to combo with castings, or something of that nature.

What Wyrmhero said is about as straight forward as it gets.

Build viability (regarding ultra weapons) = a higher soul level..usually.

Tactical viability = ???...you mean examples of playstyles??? Pursuers --> Fast rolling Smough's Hammer could prolly wreck people.

imo the great hammers really need fast roll to not get punished as much(backstabbed), if you have med or fat roll and do the roll r2(2h) you are gonna get bsed 90% of the time since it takes so long to pull off with all those slow animations, roll r1(1h or 2h) attacks are much easier to pull off and just overal better than the other slower rolls for it, remember to unlock and aim behind you when you roll r1(2h) since a decent pvp'er will roll bs you and by aiming behind you you will counter that. lunging attack can be your best friend with these two types of weapons(grea axes/hammers) but ony if you study your opponent and know when they are gonna attack if they become too predictable or if you think they're out of stamina in which case they will go splat for about 800 damage or over.

with greataxes, like the greatclubs you kinda need to stack as much poise as you can since you're gonna have to trade hits, the reg r1(2h) of the greataxe has more reach than 1h'ing it so try to trade hits, since just trying to go with a reg r1 will get you roll bs'ed, the reg greataxe is pretty awesome, the besst thing to do is r1 then r2 for people that wanna set up parries, you can also go for a stun backstab combo which most likely kill your opponent since it will do over 1400 damage total(depending oon your opponents armor. you can also do this with the ground pound of the greata clubs), kicking fishers is actually really fuin to do and will usually deter them from that boring tactic, you can also just counter bs them if you have fast roll(which makes it much easier to do)

im just gonna posst some of broke's handy work with the gretclubs so you get an idea on how to use them since he uses them kinda like me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al-tlxLF5NQ

On the note of tactics and tricks
Everyone's saying damage trades, which I totally agree with. If your opponent is favoring his running attacks, you can time your R1s (Or jumping attacks if you're feeling ballsy) to land as they hit you, which almost always results in you coming out on top.

Learning to angle your R1s unlocked can help you if you can predict where someone will be moving at the end of your swing (I.E. Turning your character about 180 degrees to bash in the skull of an unsuspecting fisherman.

Throwing out baiting attacks to get people to strike during your recovery, then going in for a second hit works quite well too.

Many people are going to try to parry your weapon. If you see someone parrying after every swing in hopes of shutting down a second one, kick them as they parry and go in for a hit or backstab.

Certain great clubs and axes have movesets that can prov especially valuable.
The Demon's greataxe, provided you have the room for it on your build has an attack that swings about three quarters, counterclockwise, around your character. This attack can either be turned mid swing, or followed up with a second, unsuspected R2 to get some potent damage in.
The large club's 1 handed r2 is a forward lunge that covers a ridiculous amount of ground. It's fairly safe to use sparingly in matches without the worry of a roll bs.
The stone great axe has a 1 handed R2 that's about a 180 swing, clockwise from the right of your character than can be followed up with the same attack at a faster speed. It's 2 handed R2 is a ground pound followed by and R2 explosion. This attack generally leaves you too open for a backstab to use. (You could try it to get someone on the wake up from a bs)

The black knight greataxe deserves a place on its own. It's damage can be a tad underwhelming when compared to other weapons of its class, but it's speed and comboing ability far surpass the other greataxes.
The one handed combos are good for shutting down Backstab attempts when unlocked, as well as deadangling. The two handed combos are amazing for enemy running r1 trades, as well as whiff combos <- (the time between swings 1 and 2 of the weapon is drastically longer than the time between swings 2 and 3, so you can do something like [ Whiff R1 to bait opponent then follow up with a 2 and 3 swing combo ] )

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Contrary to what Wyrm says, you don't need to rely on their fast rolls.

The demon hammer's one handed heavy attack can dead angle EASY. And the uppercut has a surprisingly big window. Carry an upgraded handaxe in your left hand to deal with bs fishers and you're invincible.

I WOULD vote up all these stellar responses, but I do not know how.
Thank you all very much for your input so far.

You need to have +30 posts, but I think you can hit the thanks button. Only one thanks per thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ij5cQC8NK8

Yes greataxe's are viable and so are great hammers. And no you dont need to roll+R1 in order to do any damage. Be smart with your weapon and experiment. I can tell you tactics all day. But the real key is trail and error and experience with the said weapon. And when people aproach you with tactics and diffrent sorts of weapons you will know how to react with your g axe or g hammer from past experiences. This is a time where we can say "Practice makes perfect"

Great Axes were literally the worst weapon class in the game in 1.05. So FROM nerfed them and now they are even worse.

Thanks FROM.

Saturday-Saint wrote:Great Axes were literally the worst weapon class in the game in 1.05. So FROM nerfed them and now they are even worse.

Thanks FROM.

Yeah most likely BKGA's fault...

BKGA's nerf was completely unrelated to that of other Greataxes', though.

Greataxe +15 with Sunlight Blade on a high level faith/str build is devastating. I've gotten one hit kills even in the 120 pvp (although I also had power within ). My favorite option though is one handing a buffed dragon tooth with a talisman in my left hand. If for some reason I can't land a hit (rare) I use WotG (yeah yeah wotg spammer waaaahhh), but my favorite move is using the roll attack with a dragon tooth. The two hand is pretty good because it's almost as if it has an AoE, but the semi-360 swing with one hand has landed fatal blows on BS fishers. Just ma $0.02

i just recently made my first ever 40str char and i'm quite in love with the large club. its 1h R2 is just a perfect mix of speed, range and damage. with rotten resin and poison daggers it's really easy to poison the enemy quickly and put them far behind. the last card up my sleeve is the jagged ghost blade in the offhand for quick anti-bs measures and parrys. also 76poise, quickroll and 1500hp is no problem @ slvl 99

I started to experiement with STR builds, particularly the Large Club, and have not looked back since. I have dust collecting on my BSS in my BBox.

First of all, if you're going to play a great hammer you'd better get comfortable with unlocking. I play completely unlocked, only pressing R3 to toggle into position and off, and for parry attempts and counter/pivot backstabs.

The Large Club's 1H R1 is amazing at dead angling(think Great Scythe range), and what I like to call, "tripping". Tripping meaning you can interrupt people mid-rolls, which is considered counter damage, and it stuns them depending on poise. It's useful against your flip-flip-flippers if timed right.

A cheap combo I like to use is with the Thorns Armor. I like to time an R1 trade to stun them, roll into them to stun them again, then ground smash the club for a 1000+ damage combo. This is a harder combo to pull of but extremely deadly.

As the people above me said, the rolling R1 is good offense but try not to spam it, as many inexperienced club users do. It's easy to punish. Also the recovery time on a lot of attacks are steep so make sure you get your timing down and watch out for the inevitable rollstabbers (thorns armor helps with this). Also 53-56+ poise is recommended as you don't want to be interrupted mid swing. Same goes for great axes.

With clubs, you essentially set the rhythm for the fight on your terms. If a overconfident dex user wants to try and front the step, you make sure to punish them with trades. So long as your in rhythm with your swings and timing, you'll be unstoppable.

Halberds, spears, roll backstabs, and poisestabs are all hard counters against clubs. Also quick dex weapons are a bit challenging if you can't time your trades.

As for greataxes, I don't have nearly as much experience with them as I do great hammers. Like said before, Demon Greataxe 1H has nice dead angle/combos and the rolling R1s have a nice arc to them. Their lack of range ultimately led me to abandon them, although after reading a few posts I might have to pick them back up for awhile.

Oh people who know their meta terminology.

With the large club specifically, the 1hr2 will dead angle and close the gap on a spear/halberd and can be adjusted to shut down roll stab attempts, it will also stun long enough for you to bs them if you spaced well, resulting in a minimum 1500 damage combo, at 40 str.

A crossbow is an excellent counter to halberds (who generally 2h) as the stagger after a miss is an easy time to peg them with counter damage, but it is also your worst enemy as an opposing avlyn can go through over 1k hp if it hits you mid swing or during a recovery animation.

http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=154115740798774143

this is what i tend to do. high hp, 77 poise, and the strongest pure atk weapon in the game with a ranged back up.