What race is Gwyn and his followers then?

All through the game we collect souls to become stronger. maybe god like status and size come from the power of ones soul. we know gwyn had a very large powerful soul even in the discription it sais that although it's been split and spent it still radiates power. we see all of his knights as a larger size maybe because they were strong enough to build their souls up incfreasing there own might and life span. We even see ornstein absorb smough's soul (which musthave been powerfull) and as an effect he grows and gains strength. The entire game revolves around souls so id go and say that the gods were just people who ascended due to their souls not because they were born "Gods"

That's sort of inferred by the fact you can 'use' souls (items) to gain more souls to develop your character, and they're named in accordance to how strong the owner of the soul was

To be honest though I don't agree with your assessment of god souls. Gwyn became powerful because he obtained a lord's soul which made him that powerful, though gwyndolin probably obtained his power from performing some kind of ritual (totally innocent) with the ears he gets from the DMs...

Yeah ur probably right but doesnt it say that gwyn split his soul for his children and followers aswell? maybe im just makin this **** up...

oh ya! im sure somewhere it sais gwyndolin was born with moon powers or something. so it could have been that gwyn passed down some soul power or that they really are a race of gods born with powers.

Poliwrath wrote:Yeah ur probably right but doesnt it say that gwyn split his soul for his children and followers aswell?

I don't think so.. They only case I think was the bequeathed soul which he gave to the four kings, I think that was a one off though..

I guess if we wanna get really into it, in procreation he might have passed on some soul shards to his kids

Think of Gwyn's Soul as Humanity for the gods.

The Dark Soul was split up for humanity, I think of it in a similar manner with them. Perhaps the Witches and Nito are in a similar boat.

Armor of Gwyn, Lord of Cinder, who linked the First Flame.
Lord Gwyn, bearer of the ultimate soul, divided that power among his clan before linking the flame. When he departed, he left only with his greatsword, his garb, and the crown, now bereft of power. He kept his crown perhaps to preserve a symbol of the monarch, for its actual power had fully subsided.

sais he divided his power amoung his clan.. i don't really know what that means but im guessing it's his knights and children, i think other gods are mentioned but i don't think it's ever said that they lived in anor londo... i can't remember.. something a about a god of fire?

umm and this

Soul of Gwyn, the Lord of Sunlight
and Cinder, who linked the First Flame.
Lord Gwyn bequeathed most of his power to the
Gods, and burned as cinder for the First
Flame, but even so, Lord Gwyn's soul
is a powerful thing indeed.

so ya he definatly gave his power away. but that doesn't prove much becuase theres still so much we are never told about this stuff :silent:

huh, well i guess im very wrong then..

I prefer my procreation joke though

i had a good laugh

For those who like to use the theory that everyone was once hollows, I'm not too sure it actually applies. We only see a handful of cinematics (the opening, going to and from the asylum, to and from the Painted World, too and from...you get the point) and all except the intro are 100% done by using the in-game models. That is too say, it isn't a recorded video, it's a "level" we have no control over.

It is entirely possible that the intro was done the same way and, with all the other content we know got cut, it also wouldn't surprise me if some in-game assets were reused in the intro due to lack of time. Hence, the beginning may not have actually been "hollows" rising from nothingness.

Dibsville wrote:To answer this, simply look at the opening cutscene. There was only Everlasting Dragons, but then fire came, and with it, the Hollows arose, and found Lord Souls, granting them power. They started recruiting other Hollows by offering them souls, (such as the Four Kings, they obtained their Lord Soul Shard from Gwyn, as he saw them a versatile group), and through this, humans were born, (hollows who have found that humanity can "cleanse"(?) them), and the Bonfires were lit. As far as I can tell, this kind of explains what the "people" are. They are simply "hollows".

No. Some humans become Undead through the Darksign. Undead eventually go Hollow. Hollowfication only afflicts the Undead. The Undead outbreak only occurred relatively recently (likely around 100 years before Dark Souls begins, if the Crestfallen Merchant is to be believed).

We know from her dialogue that Ciarin is most definitely not human. She must be some other species that isn't very far removed from human. We can safely assume that she's the same race as the rest of Gwyn's knights (Gough excluded), Gwyn's family and Gwyn himself.

We don't know from her dialogue that Ciaran isn't human. She talks about humans like a foreign species, but how many times have we seen humans with great power do that in countless TV shows and movies? Considering she lives among the Gods, fights at their side with long life it's not unexpected for her to think of herself this way even if her physiology is identical.

It's true that the intro doesn't tell us definitively everyone was hollow but when it talks about humans arising you see creatures that resemble hollows in looks and movement. They might have a very different mental state, but they resemble hollows and hollow might simply be a convenient term for it.

I think saying that these are reused assets in the intro is treading into the realm of total speculation with regard to lore. Possible! But I have to go with where I think more evidence lies.

KrazykevS10 wrote:He is a really big dwarf.How else could he have such an awesome beard?

This is the truth. Praise the Beard!

SpecialNewb wrote:We don't know from her dialogue that Ciaran isn't human. She talks about humans like a foreign species, but how many times have we seen humans with great power do that in countless TV shows and movies? Considering she lives among the Gods, fights at their side with long life it's not unexpected for her to think of herself this way even if her physiology is identical.

Extremely implausible, especially since we know Gwyn and most of his followers aren't humans. Occam's razor: she's not human.

Going on a speculative tangent, maybe she's half-human from a non-consensual pairing. Would explain her bias against humans and her final dialogue.

It's true that the intro doesn't tell us definitively everyone was hollow but when it talks about humans arising you see creatures that resemble hollows in looks and movement. They might have a very different mental state, but they resemble hollows and hollow might simply be a convenient term for it.

I think saying that these are reused assets in the intro is treading into the realm of total speculation with regard to lore. Possible! But I have to go with where I think more evidence lies.

There's no evidence whatsoever that the beings we see in the intro are Hollows. They're emaciated, yes, but so would anything that hid under the roots of rock trees while being perused by dragons.

We know for a fact that the Undead outbreak occurred recently. We know for a fact that only Undead can go Hollow. Therefore the beings we see in the intro can't be Hollow. Simple as that.

DE5PA1R wrote:
Extremely implausible, especially since we know Gwyn and most of his followers aren't humans. Occam's razor: she's not human.

Can you point me to this? I can't think of where it says this in game that isn't explained by what I wrote above.

We know for a fact that the Undead outbreak occurred recently. We know for a fact that only Undead can go Hollow. Therefore the beings we see in the intro can't be Hollow. Simple as that.

How do we know that? There is an outbreak of undead right now, we know there was an outbreak about 100 years ago that destroyed Balder. Crestfallen calls New Londo an "Undead City" and we know that Gwyn gave some of his soul to the 4 Kings before he Linked the fire about a 1000 years ago. Undeath is likely to have been around a long time.

That could mean that Undeath is the natural state of the humans and they only become Living humans as we know it when they receive a fragment of the Dark Soul. I've already said the intro creatures might not be hollow but they look like strips of beef jerky, move like hollows and they lack any Dark Soul. I think the strongest position has to be that they are undead.

SpecialNewb wrote:

DE5PA1R wrote:
Extremely implausible, especially since we know Gwyn and most of his followers aren't humans. Occam's razor: she's not human.

Can you point me to this? I can't think of where it says this in game that isn't explained by what I wrote above.

1a. Every single human or Undead we see in the game is approximately the same height.

1b. With the exception of Giants (who are obviously Giants) and 1 other (Ciarin, a female), every single one of Gwyn's followers/family/etc. are approximately the same height. They are significantly taller and larger than humans/Undead.

2. None of these beings have gone Hollow. All or the vast majority of Undead go Hollow eventually.

3. Allfather Lloyd commands his clerics to hunt down Undead. If Allfather Lloyd was Undead, then logically his clerics would have to hunt him down.

We know for a fact that the Undead outbreak occurred recently. We know for a fact that only Undead can go Hollow. Therefore the beings we see in the intro can't be Hollow. Simple as that.

How do we know that? There is an outbreak of undead right now, we know there was an outbreak about 100 years ago that destroyed Balder. Crestfallen calls New Londo an "Undead City" and we know that Gwyn gave some of his soul to the 4 Kings before he Linked the fire about a 1000 years ago. Undeath is likely to have been around a long time.

The Undead Outbreak refers to a singular event per country/area. Once there are Undead in a particular place, there will always be Undead there. It's a curse. So we can't say "there's an Undead outbreak right now," as opposed to "There was an outbreak X years ago." The outbreak happened a while ago in Astora. Now there will always be Undead there.

New Londo was once an Undead city, yes, but we don't know how long ago it was flooded or when Gwyn's orders were given.

The Crestfallen Merchant specifically says that the Undead have been attempting to get to Anor Londo for a century. Not 2 centuries. Not 3 centuries. 1 century. It's not 100% confirmation, but there's no reason to believe he's lying.

That could mean that Undeath is the natural state of the humans and they only become Living humans as we know it when they receive a fragment of the Dark Soul. I've already said the intro creatures might not be hollow but they look like strips of beef jerky, move like hollows and they lack any Dark Soul. I think the strongest position has to be that they are undead.

Go watch the intro again. I just did. We don't see anyone's skin. Like I said, they're emaciated. That's all we can tell. Anything that is starving would be emaciated.

Not to be rude, but you really haven't made a sound argument with any evidence. It's just something you came up with after misremembering 1 shot of the intro sequence.

"But soon, the flames will fade, and only Dark will remain.Even now, there are only embers, and man sees not light, but only endless nights. And amongst the living are seen, carriers of the accursed Darksign."

The pacing of the introduction strongly hints at a connection between those sentences, not a change of topic. This links the "dark sign among living" to the "Even now" part, showing a strong correlation suggesting the undead curse is "new".


As for New Londo, who says it has ALWAYS been an undead city? We know that one of the few power sources recruiting followers is down there, and there are giant man-eating beasts up above. When the undead get exiled from the southern lands and end up in the North, why wouldn't they go to a "safe" place?

My theory is: Gods and humans began as the same race. Any differences between them are attributable to their souls either in type or power.

Let's rewatch the intro on the Namco-Bandai youtube channel. Emaciation happens at about 1:12. I think you can see skin resembling hollow skin at 1:21 but discounting that, the silhouettes and movements of the creatures seen here greatly resemble those of most hollows we encounter in game. But you make a good point. Calling them Hollows might be a grave error. Those creatures have never been ensouled in any manner at all. Having been ensouled with either Fire or Dark may cause vast changes. That is sloppy on my part and I apologize for that!

That said I find your evidence that Gwyn's followers aren't humans insufficient to justify you saying that the Gods and humans being the same is "extremely implausible."

1. The immediate exception that springs to mind are the Berenike knights which are roughly comparable to regular Ornstein in size. The Bloathead mages and Manus also grow after their humanity runs wild, presumably making them more powerful but unstable. Do the Chaos Witches count or are they not considered to be of Gwyn's Clan?

On the other hand, the size thing could be a pure gameplay mechanic. After all the armors of Gwyndolin, Artorias, Gough, Ornstein, Smough, Ciaran and Gwyn all fit you perfectly. Even if some of them are replicas sold by Domhnall you rip Gough's armor from Gough's dead body and there's no way that should fit you at all. I don't really like this possibility but it's there.

2. Gwyn looks hollow (may be scorched) and is as hostile as any hollow, attacking as soon as you enter his range. For the rest, common fan belief is that not dying repeatedly and having a strong purpose are defenses against going Hollow. We know Ornstein and Smough have never been beaten for instance. It's possible they just haven't gotten to the point that Gwyn has because they have't died. We also know O&S are resolute in their duty to kick our ***! I think it's difficult to know either way.

3. Related to 2 above, assuming Lloyd is still around. This however remains an interesting point.

In your paragraph about Undead Outbreaks, I accept the correction that we don't know an undead outbreak is happening right now. The rest I think is speculative.

You make a second good point about New Londo and not knowing when it became Undead. The timeline for New Londo would clear up a lot but it is very murky. I tried to discuss some New Londo timeline theories, but that really derailed the post so suffice to say my position on New Londo is/was based on the common fan assumption that it was a city built FOR the Undead. It may be in error.

Well, thank you for challenging my thoughts on the matter but I simply can't agree that it is extremely implausible that Gwyn's people didn't start out as the same race of humans. I will say that it might be as likely either way.

Has anyone else noticed how Ciaran has her braid of ivory coloured hair coming out from under her mask,yet the painting guardian set has the same thing? That would mean the guardians aren't human either.

All Gwyn's family/followers are around the same height? Gwyndolin is human size if not for the snakes holding him up, Gwynevere is only seen as an illusion but as a giant, Havel is human size if it is Havel.

The painted guardians are not the same size as the silver knights are they a different race? Yet the serpent soldiers are the same size as the knights roughly so they are the same species as Gwyn? The Witch and her daughters are human size so are they human?

Ornstein and Smough are proof that size can be manipulated by the souls so I see no reason why Gwyn wouldn't be the biggest god (His tomb is gigantic yet hidden so why bother faking it?) he is larger than humans but he still has the power to give his sword a fire enchantment so he should still be slightly larger.

I think there's no direct proof that Gwyns followers aren't humans with more power as the pygmy grew into manus when he had large amounts of the dark soul all at once and I think the Dark Wraiths are slightly bigger than you as well. The only clear races are giants and humans, at some point there seems to have been some kind of fight with the giants to enslave them although no one mentions that throughout the lore as far as I can remember which is really strange. Nothing is certain obviously but since size can change I see no reason to assume Gwyns followers were born larger than everyone else. They only became Gods once they found the souls after all.

CakeThiefPro wrote:All Gwyn's family/followers are around the same height? Gwyndolin is human size if not for the snakes holding him up, Gwynevere is only seen as an illusion but as a giant, Havel is human size if it is Havel.

Gwyndolin is just weird. He may actually be half snakes; see concept art.

Gwynevere is an illusion, as you said.

Havel is a human.

The painted guardians are not the same size as the silver knights are they a different race?

Yep.

Yet the serpent soldiers are the same size as the knights roughly so they are the same species as Gwyn?

No, they're man-serpents. Obviously.

The Witch and her daughters are human size so are they human?

Yep.

Ornstein and Smough are proof that size can be manipulated by the souls so I see no reason why Gwyn wouldn't be the biggest god (His tomb is gigantic yet hidden so why bother faking it?) he is larger than humans but he still has the power to give his sword a fire enchantment so he should still be slightly larger.

If Gwyn was actually as large as his tomb he couldn't walk around his own house.

I think there's no direct proof that Gwyns followers aren't humans with more power as the pygmy grew into manus when he had large amounts of the dark soul all at once and I think the Dark Wraiths are slightly bigger than you as well. The only clear races are giants and humans, at some point there seems to have been some kind of fight with the giants to enslave them although no one mentions that throughout the lore as far as I can remember which is really strange. Nothing is certain obviously but since size can change I see no reason to assume Gwyns followers were born larger than everyone else. They only became Gods once they found the souls after all.

Ornstein and Smough do prove that size can be manipulated, but if we're incorporating gameplay mechanics then the theory that size can be manipulated through power is easily disproven by the fact that my SL700ish toon isn't ginormous.

So basically the long lost wife of Lord Gwyn is Frampt!!!

Joking aside all of Anor Londo has doors for the silver knights height and Gwyn being part of a slightly large form of humans is possible but it seems strange that there are so few of them and that they'd all be knights. I suppose we don't see the other Gods leaving Anor Londo and a large amount may have died in the war.It does fit that the Witch and her daughters don't turn into giants.

Just remembered the skeletons still not sure if they're another race or just a result of Nito preventing them from dieing which would support that there was another race as those skeletons are the same size as silver knights by the end (might need to check but I think they are) and as far as I know Nito didn't give them any power aside from keeping them moving...

Still disappointed there wasn't a skeleton dragon but ultimately you've convinced me that there probably is a separate race.

Btw are man-serpents like Velka's followers in the painted world that have mutated or are they a result of Seaths experiments or what? I always thought Sen was either a serpent or the blacksmith deity although now I'm really going off topic.

I think the skeletons are dead Giants (the ones we see in Anor Londo). They're pretty big.

Not sure about man-serpents or Sen. I suppose they may have mutated from worshiping a serpent, like the crow people in Ariamis. Good point.

The serpent people may just be experiments of Seath during his research into Scales of Immortality. They do have stone-like properties and are found working for him.

The Skeletons in the Tomb may actually be totally different Large Skeletons created by Nito. Their body structure doesn't match up with the giants we see in game. As well, there are various older bones which you can break on the ground which seem more fitting of the giants.

Tolvo wrote:The serpent people may just be experiments of Seath during his research into Scales of Immortality. They do have stone-like properties and are found working for him.

It's possible that Seath was trying to recreate whatever it is that makes the serpents immortal but the Man Serpent Great-sword says This single-bladed blood-stained greatsword is the choice weapon of the slithering serpent men of Sen's Fortress.The of Sen's Fortress implies to me that they originated there, we also find the gold serpent ring in Sens fortress so I think it's likely that either Sen was a serpent, or Sen died/left (possibly blacksmith deity due to large amount of demon titanite monsters and the fact only a master architect/builder could make such an elaborate fortress). Once under the serpents control they used their followers to test the heroes of Dark Souls as to whether they were worthy of fighting the silver knights, Ornstein etc and their followers gradually began to mutate into serpents themselves just like the Velka followers in the painted world.

Sen/Snake may have sent Seath some men because Seath needed more people who would follow his orders rather than mindless crystal hollows (some of whom we see are locked up themselves and who only seem good for attacking not operating an alarm system) as his channelers were still out looking for test subjects or busy reading for him.

SpecialNewb wrote:My theory is: Gods and humans began as the same race. Any differences between them are attributable to their souls either in type or power.

That said I find your evidence that Gwyn's followers aren't humans insufficient to justify you saying that the Gods and humans being the same is "extremely implausible."

The Bloathead mages and Manus also grow after their humanity runs wild, presumably making them more powerful but unstable.

On the other hand, the size thing could be a pure gameplay mechanic. After all the armors of Gwyndolin, Artorias, Gough, Ornstein, Smough, Ciaran and Gwyn all fit you perfectly. Even if some of them are replicas sold by Domhnall you rip Gough's armor from Gough's dead body and there's no way that should fit you at all. I don't really like this possibility but it's there.

That's what I've thought all along, I mean it makes more sense that it's more of a gameplay mechanic to give the player a sense of how extraordinary these beings are. Humans are visual animals and something like power is just an abstract concept that is intangible or "perceived"

Besides God is a title like King, Emperor, or Duke.

I have started to think they're all genetically related but I have thought that the "Gods" were closer akin to giants and the humans, from the gods POV, pygmys. The notable difference would be their lord souls. From what evolutionary biology speculates is that from ancient times of mega creature/dinosaurs, the larger tend to eventually die off and give way to smaller animals. example of dire wolf and the modern grey wolf...who's still around or whooly mammoths and elephants.

I guess the way I think of it, between the gods, giants, and humans, is how certain human cultures have been at a geographical advantage, allowing them to speed up the process of their development of technology and culture, but they are still human when comparing an Apache Warrior to a 18th century french rifleman or african pygmy.

The "Gods" were in the right place at the right time. They came across "alien technology."

I mean if this is all bullshhh then how can we, the HUMAN protagonist, transcend into the Dark Lord...essentially a "God"

it's all about the tech and the Elder Gods got lucky and love ruling the humans with a Dragon Bone Fist.