The Followers of the Occult

I've made some connections with the Occultists and the Dragon apostles. New Londo is the key and the lost home of these people. Also the Painted World contains many items related to the Occult and fire. These guys were trying to destroy the Gods, but why? I'll post some item descriptions that seem connected. Also I'm trying to find links between all the items that mention a secret rite and the goal is to find what is the rite and what was used for. I want to have as few speculation as possible, and if you have an idea or clue please post here but remember to use facts.

Dragon Eye:
An art of the transcendent apostles who pray
to the ancient dragons. To be alive is to be
vulnerable, and the fiery Gods are no
exception. The apostles seek another plane
of existence, which transcends life.

Effigy Shield:
In an ill-fated plot to destroy the very
gods, the followers of the occult once
attempted to steal the power of
Gravelord Nito, the first of the dead.



Lifehunt Scythe:
Even the Gods feared Priscilla's lifehunt
ability, and in the hands of a mortal, its
power will turn upon its wielder.

Priscilla's Dagger has occult auxiliary damage.

The statue in the middle of Painted World can be found miniature scaled at 4 Kings fog gate.

The Dark Ember is the source of occult weapons. Was kept secret by the Church.

The Dark Hand has occult auxiliary damage.

The RSS can be found at Painted World, used by noble Darkwraiths.

The Server has occult energy, and changes with fire upgrade path. We can see the mix of fire and occult as we see it in Painted World (home to various Pyromancers and Occultists). The Server was used in ancient rites.

The Large Flame Ember was originally from New Londo, used in a secret rite.

The Large Divine Ember was used by the Church (Way of White) for a secret rite.

The Church sends their first Undead to Lordran in search of the Rite of Kindling.

That's it for now.

I believe that Priscilla leads the occultists. Seath used her to throw the gods out of anor londo. It makes sense to why she has so many occult items in her world. Also the fact is the occult ember wasnt just hidden there. At one point she had a blacksmith forging occult weapons. Why would she need those except to fight the silver knights and the gods.
Dont forget the occultists stealing the ember from nito and the effigy shield.

Nito bothers me Dough. We think he had the Rite of Kindling (what for?) and the Dark Ember. Also the Large Divine Ember can be found in ToG (why?). Let's not speculate that much and see the Dark Ember and takes things step by step.

Ember required for weapon ascension.
The church long hid the forbidden black ember,
and no living blacksmith knows of it.
Ascends +5 divine weapon to occult weapon.
(occult weapons can be reinforced to +5)
Occult weapons were used to hunt the gods,
and are effective against their following and kin.

The WoW hid the ember in Painted World? What the hell? How did they acquired it first place? Did they stole it from Nito? Again slowy...too many questions. 1 by 1 unless we go Hollow lol.

Well the occultists tried to steal Nito's power. His power is the occult (not proven but likely). So the occultists stole the ember from Nito and hid it. Can we link the occultists to the WoW? Or did the church hide the ember in Nito's domain? (Probably too much speculation). Wait, are we sur ethe church is the WoW? I suppose Leeroy's presence hints that it is.
The rite of kindling vastly increases Pinwheel's power. It uses humaity to increase the strength of a bonfire. So you trade humaity for energy. The baby skeletons drop humainty. Your movement through the water gives it energy from which it is born. Could Nito have used the rite of kindling to make his baby skeles?

I almost sure WoW is the Church, with All Father Lloyd, Havel, Reah and Leeroy being the important persons. I think you might be right with Dark Ember being in possession of Nito first place, the Effigy Shield almost* confirms it. But I'm not so sure the Effigy Shield is talking about the Dark Ember, but the Rite of Kindling. Check out the Rite of Kindling description.

This secret rite allows bonfires to be
bolstered further with Kindling.
Kindling was a sacred rite passed down among clerics,
but all Undead can imitate the process in the same manner
that they restore their Hollowing with humanity.

And the MoM description:
One of the three masks of the Pinwheel,
the necromancer who stole the power of the
Gravelord, and reigns over the Catacombs.

The Rite seems to be the power of Nito. Maybe he used it to create his skeleton army. The thing is, why did the Occultists need the Rite? This is of course if we are talking about same power of Nito from both the Mask and the Effigy Shield.

The thing that stands in the way of that theory is the fact that the occultists wanted the gods dead. However sacrificing humaity to kindle the bonfires seems like a pro god move. OR if Nito was using the rite to make a skeleton army then stealing it from him would at least stop his plans. The question arises are the clerics mentioned in the rite the Pinwheels or the WoW clerics? What does Reah say about the rite? Is she reclaiming it or is she stealing it?

Indeed I think the clerics are the Pinwheels, but everything is *** ed up in Lordran due to time distortion that we don't know for sure if the Rite was in possession of Nito first place or WoW successfully stole it....

Just noticed something of possible consequence. Everyone thinks occult means "dark, evil, heretical, etc". It doesn't. It's true definitions are:


1. of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.

2. beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.

3. secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.

The first one is possibly the most interesting possible use. Of the three kinds of magic in the game, which seems most like the "traditional" magic? Sorcery, right?

Well, what being/group do we know that uses that type of magic?

Dragons?

WyrmHero wrote:Dragons?

Well, one dragon specifically at least. There's also the Vinheim Dragon School, an association that Logan, who attempts to murder you when you interrupted him from becoming "more like a dragon" (note the lack of the dragon covenant here), was at least once a member of.

The only real use of sorcery in the game world is for combat, yet a whole school of them appears to have no influence in an area their greatest member is in.

Logan is a outcast of the school though. Banished for his heretical methods.

Perhaps Reah's secret mission was to stop Leroy, who had become an occultist. Which is why you find the effigy shield used by occultists. And Leroy was a corrupted paladin.

Interesting, this all is just connecting more and more of acidics theory on velka and new londo.

Imagine if they made a movie based on this lore. Billions, i tell ya, billions

DoughGuy wrote:Logan is a outcast of the school though. Banished for his heretical methods.

That is what is said, but for the life of me I can't remember where it is mentioned. Jog my memory for me?

Ah missed you saying that, I was saying thats why there are no other members in Lordran, cause he's not part of them.
One of the spells talks about his heretical methods, for the life of me I cant find it though.

DoughGuy wrote:Ah missed you saying that, I was saying thats why there are no other members in Lordran, cause he's not part of them.
One of the spells talks about his heretical methods, for the life of me I cant find it though.

I just checked all the sorceries on the wiki and none of them mention that. Granted, the Crystal Magic Weapon description is wrong, so it could be on that spell.

On a side note, It is highly probably that basilisks are dragon descendents! Too quote the White Dragon Breath description:

"Although it no longer causes curses, what madness caused old Big Hat to appropriate this frightful power of the ancient dragons?"

Sure, it COULD be specific to Seath, I won't deny that, but since it specifically says dragonS, I think it's probable that dragon breath causes curses. And what else breaths a cloud of curse dust?

It also explains the high curse resistance on Havel's armor...

And the Basilisks drop their Eyes of Death, which are used to spread misery....it seems that Nito wanted to spread misery with the help of these little dragons...

WyrmHero wrote:And the Basilisks drop their Eyes of Death, which are used to spread misery....it seems that Nito wanted to spread misery with the help of these little dragons...

It also implies some kind of very close connection between Nito and the Dragons that allows Nito to tap into their power (curses, that is).

Although, after looking at the items that affect curse (the bite rings, and the purging stone), the earl of Carim is starting to seem like a VERY shady character. He commissioned the bite rings (which likely involved some kind of grisly act) and his "secret treasure" are the purging stones (Which, surprisingly to me at least, are bigger then your head).

The purging stones are actually stones with souls trapped inside them or something. The earl is very very odd/evil.

I'm reading the Gravelord Sword description.

The miasma of death exudes from the sword, a veritable toxin to any living being.

Is this power of Nito, the toxin, what the Occultists were trying to steal from him? I think yes, to use it against the living beings, the Gods...

Why does Nito havesom many powers?! Though he did use that against the dragons, miasma of disease.

DoughGuy wrote:The purging stones are actually stones with souls trapped inside them or something. The earl is very very odd/evil.

The description actually says there is a whole skull in the stone, but I digress. Yes, the earl is evil. What I was getting at, however, is teh simple fact that it appears he is PLANNING for something. The bite rings are in Lordran, Lautrec is on some kind of quest in Lordran, and the earl is planning for something. Coincidence, I think not.

WyrmHero wrote:I'm reading the Gravelord Sword description.

The miasma of death exudes from the sword, a veritable toxin to any living being.

Is this power of Nito, the toxin, what the Occultists were trying to steal from him? I think yes, to use it against the living beings, the Gods...

It can be released in a cloud, as we know from the pyromancy spell. Priscilla's bleed drove the gods from Anor Londo, curses can decimate humans with little effort, who knows what kind of diabolical effects they could put the toxin to use for, especially if it really is "concentrated death"?

DoughGuy wrote:Why does Nito havesom many powers?! Though he did use that against the dragons, miasma of disease.

He's basically death incarnate. It is understandable that he would have the ability to kill things.

Ok let's theorize on Dragons later. For now we are sure Nito has or had 2 powers, the Rite of Kindling, stolen by Pinwheel, and his miasma of death/toxin. We could speculate that the Occultists were trying to steal the Rite of Kindling, but I don't see any connection for now to them. Its only link is WoW and Pinwheel, for now. So we could say the Occultists were trying to steal the toxin power from Nito for their plan to kill the Gods. But from what they would steal that power? His Lord Soul? The numerous Eyes of Death? His Gravelord Sword?

He gives you his sword for joining, I dont think the sword alone is the power. His lord soul requires his death which is too much for them to hope for. Perhaps something within the second coffin?

DoughGuy wrote:He gives you his sword for joining, I dont think the sword alone is the power. His lord soul requires his death which is too much for them to hope for. Perhaps something within the second coffin?

Could be. It could also be one of the rites mentioned in the game, a sort of ritual to drain a being's power.