Introducing the Scrub.

by Animaaal Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:50 am

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Post n°76

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Animaaal Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:50 am

The frame of mind that winning no matter the strategy is called survival of the fittest.

Its savagery. Also regressive. Sometimes incorporating man-made rules is done to level the playing field because programmers and developers actually made a mistake.

We do it out of sportsmanlike conduct. Also, incorporating community minded rules can very much be similar to indirectly reprogramming the game errors for free on behalf of the developer while assuming what should have been implemented.

Rules don’t always inhibit progression, hell, our "noobish community rules" are the very reason for the success of Dark Souls and its OBVIOUS improvement from Demon's Souls. Dark Souls was extremely community influenced...regardless of who says FROM is "artistically introverted".

We wanted more ways to invade? We got em.

We wanted more weapon selections? We got em.

We wanted better magic aka castings? We got em.

They don't get it right all the time...thats what we're here for.

Also, if there were a Dark Souls cash tourney, the rule list would have to be so long (if true balance was desired), that it would probably be unenforceable.

You aint perfect FROM, but we're here for ya man.

The only thing the article is really saying is, "Practice makes perfect." I say no shyt. :roll:

by Jansports Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:17 am

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Post n°77

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Jansports Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:17 am

I have so much to say I've been too overwhelmed to post in this thread.

@Latitoast. The video you posted, while the commentary is a little much (I personally don't call people little ***** quite that much) But when faced with new situations the player responds with appropriate tactics (dead angles and bleeding out shield turtles, using stuns well ect.) I would certainly do just that, act in a way to increase my chances of winning as the fight evolves so do my tactics, that IMO is the mark of a good player.

@ Tolvo. While I would like to say Sirlin wouldn't condone elitist behaviour and intended his work on playing to win to bridge the gap between the proverbial Pros and Joes. I can't. The things I would say about him are quite unfair and probably against forum rules since he doesn't post here and can't defend himself.

@ Animaaal. I think honestly you have a problem with rules. You like quite alot as can be seen by the riddle thread's rather indepth set of rules. And every time competitive DaS comes up you mention that to balance the game a list of rules impossibly long would be needed. This is a stance I simply disagree with. In fact the way the Arena works (spawn points far enough away that TwoP isn't camping right where you appear) is very fair, though due to it's multi fight nature faith is a little over represented as it's the only effective means of healing between bouts. That said I don't really see much imbalance between weapons, sure prissy's dagger isn't hyper amazing but there is a huge list of viable weapons

by Animaaal Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:53 am

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Post n°78

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Animaaal Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:53 am

Jansports wrote:
@ Animaaal. I think honestly you have a problem with rules. You like quite alot as can be seen by the riddle thread's rather indepth set of rules...

Sooo I do have a problem with rules...or do not have a problem with rules? I’m not mocking you, I just don’t understand the grammer.

Jansports wrote:...And every time competitive DaS comes up you mention that to balance the game a list of rules impossibly long would be needed...

Its true I say that. First you'd have to define glitch. Whats acceptable, whats not, etcetcetc.

That would kinda take awhile ya know.

Oooh wait, I'm a rule freak lol. No better yet, control freak. I get it...so what?

PS - My riddle thread has a set of rules that makes it everlasting, I found a problem with other riddle threads and made it better...just...like....souls series community rules...thanks for validating my point.

by Latitoast Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:32 am

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Post n°79

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Latitoast Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:32 am

Jansports wrote:I have so much to say I've been too overwhelmed to post in this thread.

@Latitoast. The video you posted, while the commentary is a little much (I personally don't call people little ***** quite that much) But when faced with new situations the player responds with appropriate tactics (dead angles and bleeding out shield turtles, using stuns well ect.) I would certainly do just that, act in a way to increase my chances of winning as the fight evolves so do my tactics, that IMO is the mark of a good player.

Would you go the lengths of getting a level 387 build that can ninja flip in full Havel's with a GSoA?

Is that even fair since the invaders have no chance of fighitng someone with so much armor, and mobility? That's much even for the forest.

by Latitoast Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:55 am

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Post n°80

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Latitoast Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:55 am

Saturday-Saint wrote:They are not valid points. Do you know what is a "strawman"? It means you are responding to an argument that isn't being made. You are misrepresenting PTW and attacking this fictional version of it instead of responding to what it is actually saying.

It says playing using what is considered a cheap tactic is legitimate play, and that if a different player doesn't like it, too bad, not my problem. It's just a game, the experience doesn't matter, then the face of the Dark Souls community would be a giantdad.

I'm throwing out examples of this logic.

If I spammed WoTG, with equipment that can make it deal 1000+ damage, it's legitimate play even if my opponent thinks it's cheap.

That's the logic behind it.

It can be prepared for tournaments all it wants, but it will still be read by people who play the game in a more lax setting like random invasions, and then all hell breaks lose because "The guy on the interwebs told me this is okay".

Telling players they can be as much of a jerk as they want, if it lets them win never works well, there's a reason why rules are made by communities. Not because the collective community is bad, but because something is unfair and unwanted by the community.

If everyone thinks X is cheap, and unfair, then you shouldn't use it because the majority vote thinks there's a problem with it. When a player abuses this, they're being a jerk.

Example, if using the TCC with the Crown of Dusk and the Bellowing DCR to make each Dark Bead kill people in one hit is "cheap" but a player uses it, he's in the right, and the player who got killed in one hit is just a scrub for not killing him with Dark Bead first.

I can't stress it enough, it's sugarcoated, be a jerk, your opponent's experience should be disregarded, the win if the only important thing that matters, whether anyone has fun, you, your opponent, the audience, none of their entertainment matters as long as you win.

These rules that the players set, what is cheap and what is not, exist because a community wanted it. Because nobody enjoys a bunch of people trying to be jerks.

The rules we make are there for when a Dev goofs up.

We don't set rules for no reason, it's a general consensus that only those who employ these tactics like them, or are even indifferent to these styles.

I disagree with the author's thinking, it's a bland way to think, and in my opinion makes the experience only good for him, not for other players.

by Jansports Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:39 am

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Post n°81

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Jansports Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:39 am

Latitoast wrote:

Jansports wrote:I have so much to say I've been too overwhelmed to post in this thread.

@Latitoast. The video you posted, while the commentary is a little much (I personally don't call people little ***** quite that much) But when faced with new situations the player responds with appropriate tactics (dead angles and bleeding out shield turtles, using stuns well ect.) I would certainly do just that, act in a way to increase my chances of winning as the fight evolves so do my tactics, that IMO is the mark of a good player.

Would you go the lengths of getting a level 387 build that can ninja flip in full Havel's with a GSoA?

Is that even fair since the invaders have no chance of fighitng someone with so much armor, and mobility? That's much even for the forest.

I have a 400 something Forest build. It's the forest honestly invasion levels mean nothing there it makes sense to go that high for a build

by Saturday-Saint Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:57 pm

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Post n°82

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Saturday-Saint Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:57 pm

I don't think the message that "cheap" tactics are okay is what PTW is getting at. The message is more like "cheap" tactics don't exist. "Cheap" is just a word that gets thrown around when somebody doesn't feel like dealing with something. 1k damage WoG spam can be beaten. Dark Bead spam can be beaten. PTW isn't telling you to use these tactics so that you can be a jerk. It's telling you that using these tactics doesn't make you a jerk, because anybody can learn to beat them. If somebody doesn't like those tactics, they can avoid the people who use them, or they can learn to beat them. There's no need for them to whine at the people who use them. If you want to get somebody to stop spamming Dark Bead, the best way to convince them is to punish them when they cast it.

And frankly you have no business telling other people how to play their game. I get these messages sometimes, "chain BS === cheap," or "dont abuse katanas bleed so much" or "turtling 4 pusies" or "ur a vit-gouge ***" or whatever complaint they have about whatever they think caused them to lose. If these people don't like playing with me, they can shove off. I don't want to play with that person just as much as they don't want to play with me. I'm not out to be a jerk to them, I just play the game in the way I find enjoyable. Why should I listen to their demands that I play how they think it should be played, when those demands are made with no regard for me or my enjoyment?

The answer is I shouldn't.

As for the people who read PTW and misinterpret it justify ganking people or whatever, that's really not David's fault. Furthermore, those people don't actually need to cite some guy's internet book to justify how they're playing a game.

by Animaaal Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:11 pm

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Post n°83

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Animaaal Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:11 pm

Saturday-Saint wrote:..."Cheap" is just a word that gets thrown around when somebody doesn't feel like dealing with something...

I completely disagree with this.

Saturday-Saint wrote:...And frankly ~~you~~ we have no business telling other people how to play their game...

I almost completely agree with this, but the exact same could be said to you Saturday. If someone wants to play with manmade rules, should we tell them they aren’t playing right? You’ve already said, “For tourneys..etc”, and its rhetorical. I say it for the sake of the thread tone.

Saturday-Saint wrote:...Why should I listen to their demands that I play how they think it should be played, when those demands are made with no regard for me or my enjoyment?

The answer is I shouldn't...

That's what is debatable imo. If someone enjoys hacking, should they do it?…again rhetorical, I’m not putting those words in your mouth.

by ADirtySlate Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:19 pm

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Post n°84

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by ADirtySlate Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:19 pm

This article really shouldn't be applied to what we do here.

As a person who plays fighting games, this person plays a game that was balanced to all hell because that was what the game was made for: competition. Street Fighter is a game made for people who want to flex their muscles and show how good they are. That is why there are online rankings and cash tournaments where it is implied you should win.

To try and apply this article to Dark Souls is ludicrous.

First off, Dark Souls and any other game which is not made with pre-made characters which allow you to play online should not be compared to this article. They made these pre-made characters for people to play against each other and create BALANCE, which is why this does make sense. However, we must remember that Dark Souls is not all PVP. Imagine everything you've complained about or has been complained about online: backstab fishing, dark magic, and spears. Most of these are countered in PVE a lot: All bosses and a fair amount of mobs are immune to backstabs, dark magic's huge damage is nothing when you are at a disadvantage in numbers (especially when flanked), and seriously, when have you EVER heard of a seasoned player using a spear in PVE? These commonly get lauded in PVP because they are cheap there, but are balanced because of their general incompetency in PVE.

In conclusion, for what he was writing about, this man makes a fair argument: people should not make their own rules in fighting games because all are fully counterable and do not do too much damage even if you know what you are doing. In Dark Souls, backstabs, dark magic and spears put players at a disadvantage even to people who know their counters, and should not be punished so severely for making a single mistake in a non-competitive environment. We as a group are not being idiots for making these rules; we are simply adapting the given engine to suit fair PVP play, as the engine was not made for this in the first place.

by Animaaal Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:23 pm

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Post n°85

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Animaaal Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:23 pm

ADirtySlate wrote:...We as a group are not being idiots for making these rules; we are simply adapting the given engine to suit fair PVP play, as the engine was not made for this in the first place...

I bow for all of it, but I Proper Bow

for the quote.

by DemonOfFate Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:25 pm

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Post n°86

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by DemonOfFate Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:25 pm

ADirtySlate wrote:This article really shouldn't be applied to what we do here.

As a person who plays fighting games, this person plays a game that was balanced to all hell because that was what the game was made for: competition. Street Fighter is a game made for people who want to flex their muscles and show how good they are. That is why there are online rankings and cash tournaments where it is implied you should win.

To try and apply this article to Dark Souls is ludicrous.

First off, Dark Souls and any other game which is not made with pre-made characters which allow you to play online should not be compared to this article. They made these pre-made characters for people to play against each other and create BALANCE, which is why this does make sense. However, we must remember that Dark Souls is not all PVP. Imagine everything you've complained about or has been complained about online: backstab fishing, dark magic, and spears. Most of these are countered in PVE a lot: All bosses and a fair amount of mobs are immune to backstabs, dark magic's huge damage is nothing when you are at a disadvantage in numbers (especially when flanked), and seriously, when have you EVER heard of a seasoned player using a spear in PVE? These commonly get lauded in PVP because they are cheap there, but are balanced because of their general incompetency in PVE.

In conclusion, for what he was writing about, this man makes a fair argument: people should not make their own rules in fighting games because all are fully counterable and do not do too much damage even if you know what you are doing. In Dark Souls, backstabs, dark magic and spears put players at a disadvantage even to people who know their counters, and should not be punished so severely for making a single mistake in a non-competitive environment. We as a group are not being idiots for making these rules; we are simply adapting the given engine to suit fair PVP play, as the engine was not made for this in the first place.

Well said, +1 to you mate.

by **reim0027** Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:47 pm

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Post n°87

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by reim0027 Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:47 pm

Saturday-Saint wrote:I don't think the message that "cheap" tactics are okay is what PTW is getting at. The message is more like "cheap" tactics don't exist. "Cheap" is just a word that gets thrown around when somebody doesn't feel like dealing with something. 1k damage WoG spam can be beaten. Dark Bead spam can be beaten. PTW isn't telling you to use these tactics so that you can be a jerk. It's telling you that using these tactics doesn't make you a jerk, because anybody can learn to beat them. If somebody doesn't like those tactics, they can avoid the people who use them, or they can learn to beat them. There's no need for them to whine at the people who use them. If you want to get somebody to stop spamming Dark Bead, the best way to convince them is to punish them when they cast it.

And frankly you have no business telling other people how to play their game. I get these messages sometimes, "chain BS === cheap," or "dont abuse katanas bleed so much" or "turtling 4 pusies" or "ur a vit-gouge ***" or whatever complaint they have about whatever they think caused them to lose. If these people don't like playing with me, they can shove off. I don't want to play with that person just as much as they don't want to play with me. I'm not out to be a jerk to them, I just play the game in the way I find enjoyable. Why should I listen to their demands that I play how they think it should be played, when those demands are made with no regard for me or my enjoyment?

The answer is I shouldn't.

As for the people who read PTW and misinterpret it justify ganking people or whatever, that's really not David's fault. Furthermore, those people don't actually need to cite some guy's internet book to justify how they're playing a game.

As much as it pains me to say this, I agree with much of what Sat is saying.

Cheap is subjective. The more you understand something, the less cheap it becomes. Instead of creating rules to prevent "cheap moves" or flaming others who use "cheap moves", we should learn to overcome these "cheap moves". We'll be better players and the moves won't be as cheap anymore. Win-win, if you ask me.

by Animaaal Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:11 am

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Post n°88

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Animaaal Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:11 am

reim0027 wrote:...Cheap is subjective...

Thats it is Mr. reim, so much in fact it screams at you sometimes.

reim0027 wrote:...The more you understand something, the less cheap it becomes...

I hate to say it, but thats subjective. I still think having my bow backstabbed or watching the Pursuers --> CSS combo is cheap, regardless of the available counters or how many times it happens. It doesn't become less cheap to me, it just bothers me less...MOST days.

reim0027 wrote:... we should learn to overcome these "cheap moves"...

Fa show.

There’s a huge problem with this though. We apply objective cheapness to regulate and use glitches, what makes them any different?….they are not hacks?
By this logic the Dragonhead knife spit glitch or the TWoDeath should be acceptable because they are glitches and therefore should be treated the same way?

Again, this is rhetorical in nature. I’m simply exemplifying the ability for the human mind to use objectivity to our advantage because of common sense.

I think Dirty said it best, we are simply trying to adapt an engine that was not created for fair pvp in the first place.

Imo, the aggressive pursuit of the negative will eventually lead to the purest positive. Its not a solo philosophy imo, but one better served by a joint effort, like forum polls and the like, or just straight up thread conversations.

We've turned this series into something it was never meant to be, and FROM couldn't be more thankful I would imagine.

My 2 sense

by Jansports Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:43 am

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Post n°89

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Jansports Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:43 am

ADirtySlate wrote:

In conclusion, for what he was writing about, this man makes a fair argument: people should not make their own rules in fighting games because all are fully counterable and do not do too much damage even if you know what you are doing. .

This is simply wrong. ONE single mistake can and will make a professional lose a match of MvC3 SF4 BB SC5.

And as far as I know everything not glitched or hacked has available counters in dark souls

by Saturday-Saint Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:10 am

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Post n°90

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Saturday-Saint Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:10 am

I don't know about MvC3 or SC5, but in BB and SF4 you generally don't lose because of one mistake.

by KrazykevS10 Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:57 am

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Post n°91

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by KrazykevS10 Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:57 am

I'd like to point out that calling someone who doesn't do everything they can to win a "scrub" is just immature.I feel as though a large part of the article is pretty much complaining about how people with self imposed limits think certain things are cheap.

I am one of those people,I dislike certain methods of fighting but that does not make me a noob or scrub.I beat the crap out of "play-to-win" people regularly with one arm figuratively tied behind my back.The truth is,I and many other players like me are better with our rules than 99.99999% of people who shun them.

The above paragraph is not intended as an expression of my ego,I simply mean to point out how so called scrubs are not bad players at all and should not be looked down on considering that we would easily beat all try-hards if we did stop worrying about rules.But to say it is more fun to put your all into every fight is total bull.Different people like different things and I personally like my fights to last more than 15 seconds.Not abusing glitches and/or the most powerful attacks means I am actually challenged by other players,that is what I find fun.

I wouldn't expect players to limit themselves in any way in a tournament but in regular online play,it is quite sad.When there is absolutely nothing at stake,players should not try so hard to win.Some people just come off as a total a**hat in what would have otherwise been a friendly duel.Games are not a sport,they are a form of entertainment.

In closing,I'd like to say that in my experience,the use of the word 'scrub' has been intended as meaning cheap or noob-ish.I don't use the word myself,that's just what I gathered from hatemail.

by ADirtySlate Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:45 am

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Post n°92

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by ADirtySlate Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:45 am

Jansports wrote:

ADirtySlate wrote:

In conclusion, for what he was writing about, this man makes a fair argument: people should not make their own rules in fighting games because all are fully counterable and do not do too much damage even if you know what you are doing. .

This is simply wrong. ONE single mistake can and will make a professional lose a match of MvC3 SF4 BB SC5.

And as far as I know everything not glitched or hacked has available counters in dark souls

It's true that a single mistake can make a professional lose, but this is more towards the end of the match when both players have already chipped each other's health down to about a third, correct? I don't think many 100% health combos are available in fighting games, and I certainly don't feel that they would be allowed in many fighting tournaments.

I'm not saying that Dark Souls does not have counters. I'm just saying that it isn't "fully counterable". The difference is the availability of these counters. Again, fighting games have pre-made characters to increase balance by making sure everyone has the available mechanics: throws to beat turtles, for example. However, as an RPG, Dark Souls does not have this availability. Using my spears example, it would take an entire dedicated build to take it down: a build with high poise, fast speed, and a hard hitting weapon. However, since this build ends up lacking against people who don't have his specific counter, we simply decided it would be best to just have spears outlawed in fair play instead of having spears and these specialized builds running about and simply being a game of rock-paper-scissors with scissors occasionally cutting rock.

by Saturday-Saint Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:08 am

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Post n°93

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Saturday-Saint Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:08 am

ADirtySlate wrote:spears example, it would take an entire dedicated build to take it down

Dude, what?

by ADirtySlate Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:14 am

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Post n°94

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by ADirtySlate Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:14 am

Saturday-Saint wrote:

ADirtySlate wrote:spears example, it would take an entire dedicated build to take it down

Dude, what?

Alright, the general tactic of a spear user is to roll about and use the rolling attack or to spam the 2H R1/1H R1 behind a shield. Normally, no build is capable of getting through this, and will end up losing. The high poise allows the build I suggested to run though, get there fast enough before he can react, and can get him through a shield by draining stamina. But seriously, the point in it was not to gripe about spears, but rather to show people that counters are not as readily available in Dark Souls as it is in fighting games, going back to my first statement that applying this article to Dark Souls is a poor choice.

by Saturday-Saint Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:34 am

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Post n°95

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Saturday-Saint Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:34 am

Your example is just bunk. I have no trouble fighting spear users without making a build dedicated to killing them. They are powerful weapons, but they do not even approach the level of dominance that you are suggesting they have.

Also one of the main games that PTW cites, and the game its author draws most of his experience from, is Street Fighter 2. So the idea that PTW can/should only be applied to balanced games is also bunk.

by Bowdownbe4me Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:36 am

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Post n°96

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Bowdownbe4me Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:36 am

ADirtySlate wrote:

Jansports wrote:

ADirtySlate wrote:

In conclusion, for what he was writing about, this man makes a fair argument: people should not make their own rules in fighting games because all are fully counterable and do not do too much damage even if you know what you are doing. .

This is simply wrong. ONE single mistake can and will make a professional lose a match of MvC3 SF4 BB SC5.

And as far as I know everything not glitched or hacked has available counters in dark souls

It's true that a single mistake can make a professional lose, but this is more towards the end of the match when both players have already chipped each other's health down to about a third, correct? I don't think many 100% health combos are available in fighting games, and I certainly don't feel that they would be allowed in many fighting tournaments.

I'm not saying that Dark Souls does not have counters. I'm just saying that it isn't "fully counterable". The difference is the availability of these counters. Again, fighting games have pre-made characters to increase balance by making sure everyone has the available mechanics: throws to beat turtles, for example. However, as an RPG, Dark Souls does not have this availability. Using my spears example, it would take an entire dedicated build to take it down: a build with high poise, fast speed, and a hard hitting weapon. However, since this build ends up lacking against people who don't have his specific counter, we simply decided it would be best to just have spears outlawed in fair play instead of having spears and these specialized builds running about and simply being a game of rock-paper-scissors with scissors occasionally cutting rock.

As much as I appreciate what you are trying to say, I disagree on your point that you need an entire build to counter certain playstyles. However, you *do* need to be willing to change your equipment around to suit your foe.

When facing a flippy spear, there is no better alternative then to turtle behind a decent shield with a rapier. They won't be able to pose you any threat from their preferred range because their weapon has no dead-angle potential. This forces them into a bs fishing competition, where you have the upper hand with a weapon that will out damage their spear bs. (And I would whole-heartedly agree that this makes for a boring fight, but that's a consequence of your opponent using a spear). The only argument against spears that I can see is that it forces each player into a very restricted playstyle which is, for the most part, boring.

(also, side note: there are a whole range of tactics and counter tactics in the realm which many people call "cheap." For example, there is a certain way to approach a bs fisher which will land you the counter-fish without having it turn into a mutual bs cancel. Learning these "metagame tactics" can make you reconsider what you'd want to call "cheap.")

But why am I not agreeing with you that this requires a build of it's own? Because elemental weapons and the ability to change around rings means that any decent pvp build should have access to an "anti-spear" setup (even if they don't want to use it). If you're running a strength build, you should still at least have at least 12 dexterity to have the ability to wield a rapier. If you don't take these minor stat investments into account when creating your build then I would say that it's a consequence of insufficient planning.

by ADirtySlate Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:54 am

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Post n°97

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by ADirtySlate Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:54 am

Bowdownbe4me wrote:

ADirtySlate wrote:

Jansports wrote:

ADirtySlate wrote:

In conclusion, for what he was writing about, this man makes a fair argument: people should not make their own rules in fighting games because all are fully counterable and do not do too much damage even if you know what you are doing. .

This is simply wrong. ONE single mistake can and will make a professional lose a match of MvC3 SF4 BB SC5.

And as far as I know everything not glitched or hacked has available counters in dark souls

It's true that a single mistake can make a professional lose, but this is more towards the end of the match when both players have already chipped each other's health down to about a third, correct? I don't think many 100% health combos are available in fighting games, and I certainly don't feel that they would be allowed in many fighting tournaments.

I'm not saying that Dark Souls does not have counters. I'm just saying that it isn't "fully counterable". The difference is the availability of these counters. Again, fighting games have pre-made characters to increase balance by making sure everyone has the available mechanics: throws to beat turtles, for example. However, as an RPG, Dark Souls does not have this availability. Using my spears example, it would take an entire dedicated build to take it down: a build with high poise, fast speed, and a hard hitting weapon. However, since this build ends up lacking against people who don't have his specific counter, we simply decided it would be best to just have spears outlawed in fair play instead of having spears and these specialized builds running about and simply being a game of rock-paper-scissors with scissors occasionally cutting rock.

As much as I appreciate what you are trying to say, I disagree on your point that you need an entire build to counter certain playstyles. However, you *do* need to be willing to change your equipment around to suit your foe.

When facing a flippy spear, there is no better alternative then to turtle behind a decent shield with a rapier. They won't be able to pose you any threat from their preferred range because their weapon has no dead-angle potential. This forces them into a bs fishing competition, where you have the upper hand with a weapon that will out damage their spear bs. (And I would whole-heartedly agree that this makes for a boring fight, but that's a consequence of your opponent using a spear). The only argument against spears that I can see is that it forces each player into a very restricted playstyle which is, for the most part, boring.

(also, side note: there are a whole range of tactics and counter tactics in the realm which many people call "cheap." For example, there is a certain way to approach a bs fisher which will land you the counter-fish without having it turn into a mutual bs cancel. Learning these "metagame tactics" can make you reconsider what you'd want to call "cheap.")

But why am I not agreeing with you that this requires a build of it's own? Because elemental weapons and the ability to change around rings means that any decent pvp build should have access to an "anti-spear" setup (even if they don't want to use it). If you're running a strength build, you should still at least have at least 12 dexterity to have the ability to wield a rapier. If you don't take these minor stat investments into account when creating your build then I would say that it's a consequence of insufficient planning.

Alright then. I guess I was just flat-out wrong there. Ah well. happens to the best of us.

by ADirtySlate Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:17 pm

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Post n°98

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by ADirtySlate Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:17 pm

Saturday-Saint wrote:Your example is just bunk. I have no trouble fighting spear users without making a build dedicated to killing them. They are powerful weapons, but they do not even approach the level of dominance that you are suggesting they have.

Also one of the main games that PTW cites, and the game its author draws most of his experience from, is Street Fighter 2. So the idea that PTW can/should only be applied to balanced games is also bunk.

Alright yes, I was wrong in saying that spears can't be countered all too well.

However, I'm sticking by my opinion that PTW should only be applied to balanced games, or at least those which have a notion of doing so. If you make a game that has the SOLE PURPOSE of making competition, which Street Fighter is meant to be, then of course it's going to have better balance than that of an RPG. Sometimes, as we get in deep into PVP, we forget that PVE is there. All weapons are balanced in Dark Souls, but because the balance is sometimes between PVE and PVP effectiveness, we make these rules to better suit fair PVP play.

For example, let's take into account Street Fighter 4. I will be using the win/lose percentages of the most successful and least successful characters. Capcom released these statistics based on the result of thousands or tens of thousands of matches. The most successful character is Sagat, who wins 49:31, equating to a 61% winning statistic, while the least successful, Rose, has a ratio of 53:67, equating to 44%. This is not very much of a variable, as only 17% separates the two.

Honestly, I don't know why you bring up Street Fighter II, since the author only mentions the series as a whole when talking about an example. I could find no statistics on it, so I will consider it a moot point, as it is no longer in commission in any cash tournament outside of privately held ones.

by Bowdownbe4me Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:22 pm

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Post n°99

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by Bowdownbe4me Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:22 pm

ADirtySlate wrote:Alright then. I guess I was just flat-out wrong there. Ah well. happens to the best of us.

Wait... what!? Did someone just admit that they were wrong on an internet forum? :shock:

That's... unsettling.

You guys really are different here. I appreciate that. It's just going to be something that I have to get used to. (I'm more used to fighting off trolls and egomaniacs in order to preserve the board lol

).

by User1 Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:27 pm

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Post n°100

Re: Introducing the Scrub.

Post by User1 Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:27 pm

Trust me when I say this Bowdown, we are a totally different community than most.

A lot of us are close friends with one another, and have shared confidential information with one another multiple times. I am one such person.

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