How to Even the Odds

I should also mention, no fighting about the morality of ganking here, I will swiftly bring in the mods if I see it.  Saying why you gank openly is fine.  Personally I'm always interested in the mentality behind why people do certain things in a game, so if people do explain why they gank I'm always willing to read it to try and get a better understanding.

In general though, this thread is going to be simply about how to fight against numbers and more specifically gankers.

I found the section on Environments to be very insightful.

Indeed, many people forget there is an Upper Blight Town.

Since there is literally no content, here is lesson 0: backstab frequently.

Nice idea Tolvo +1.

Well put as well.  Thank you for defining "gank".  It made the poll answer easy for me.

However, the only gank tactics I can give advice towards would be from a hosting in Darkroot Forest perspective.  Although it might be a slightly different point of view, some of the principles would remain the same I would imagine.

-Toggle Lock Spacing

*I would say this technique has helped me immensely when getting ganked in the forest.  Switching between your targets aggressively can really throw someone off.  It's also nice for maximizing you angles when rolling away from a gank when trying to  create space and avoid backstabs or spams.

-Toggle Lock Parry

*This is different in that you are intentionally going to toggle and step into the attack for a parry and ignore spacing for dealing maximum crit damage to your opponent and enjoying the I-frames that come along with it.

 If someone is spamming attacks from your flank just outside of their reach, try this.  It is pretty much a sight parry, and a lot of people will walk right into it.

-DWGR and Stamina Stacking

*I know the extra I-frames are not much per roll in comparison, but add that up over 5-8 rolls and the extra distance you can cover, and its a deadly combo.

-Divine Blessings/Elizabeth Mushrooms

*Quick heals no matter how you look at it.  Its a tactic to be used sparingly (in most cases), but still warrants a mention.


Anywho, thanks a lot for making this one Tolvo.  I look forward to learning a few things as it develops.

Trust me Saint, I'm going to have a good deal on Backstabbing since Backstabs are one of the most effective ways to deal with Gankers.  I'll probably link your thread on Backstabbing in the Resource section as well, and thank you Animaal.  If people think they know something I don't feel free to post it.  More information on how to deal with Gankers is better.  Just remember the rules of the forum.

I've never teamed up with another person to farm invaders because it seems incredibly boring to me, having a numbers advantage in a souls game is like having one in a boxing match; incredibly unfair. 

The strongest tactic for dealing with gankers is a riposte with a buffed Str weapon with the Hornet ring (try to estus away 2450 damage ripostes) but the easiest one is probably backstabbing, especially switching targets. Act like you're fighting one, then when the other comes in, usually for a bs, switch targets and bs the other. Poise helps for tanking a phantom's hit while you bs the host, and another good tactic is to have a spear and a crit weapon in the right hand. Play the defensive roll turtle with the spear, then switch to the crit weapon when the enemy rushes you. Before they can react, which usually takes some time for them to go back on the defensive, bs one of them, preferably the host so that your damage isn't negated by the estus before the phantom gets up. 

You can also just TWoP and dead angle WoG/Fire tempest with Power Within on. That tends to get the job done if the gank doesn't see it coming from a mile away.

You can't cast Power Within with TwoP, both are self buffs.

Oh really? Huh, I never knew that, I thought TWoP was outside the buff classifications of body/weapon.

Nope it counts, generally it doesn't last long enough for people to really notice though.  Crown, plus Bellowing Ring should easily let you hit hard anyway.

Saturday-Saint wrote:Since there is literally no content, here is lesson 0:  backstab frequently.

Then should fast rolling be lesson -1?

 I mean there is really no way to separately define anti-ganking backstabs and regular backstabs.  Players already learn to do this with mobs in pve.  The principles do not change when encountering gankers.

Sure there are separate techniques that make someone decent at backstabs and countering them, but I fail to see how those mechanics change when encountering a gank squad.

The toggle spacing technique I mentioned or the way Ghadis put it is sufficient I would imagine.

Nice idea Tolvo.

As for me, I don't gank. I tried fighting with a friend by letting the invader pick one of us to fight, while the other watched, but a lot of invaders just got greedy and attacked us both. :/

Never tried anything like that again.

Tactics huh?
I'm a sort of stupid when it comes to ganks I guess. I try to use the enviroment to my advantage. Not only mobs, but areas where I can't be surrounded, such as narrow paths and bridges. Trying to kick them off a ledge and so on.
If that fails, it's a backstab fest. Since I main a Rapier, I can't really trade blows with gankers, especially since most of them uses Str weapons and spells. 
Being fast is very importnant, because you have to move a round a lot. You can't really block two, or three players, so evasion and offence is your best bet. Kill them before they kill you sort of approach.

I have a anti-gank forest build. 45 Dex, 50 Faith with 9 casts of WoG, Dusk Crown and Ring of Sun's Firstborn. I usually cast PW if I can to get extra damage and SLB on my Falchion. As a second ring, I switch between Hornet and Red Tearstone. With the buffs, WoG does around 700-800 damage and with RTSR active it does around 1100-1200. It's really great to deal with gankers, since it can hit all of them.

Using a min/maxed buid, focused on max damage is a great way to deal with gankers, since you will outdamage them in most cases. Unlike you, they remain in the host's world without being able to replenish their spells, so you can go trigger happy. Also, most gankers have no form of plan, strategy and usually don't even have skills, so it's quite easy to use this against them.

First off I don't know who has down-repped you but that's just ludicrous. This thread is a great source of knowledge. Given you a +1 to even things up  

Secondly; I have never and will never gank in any game, especially Souls games - the thrill of a victory against tougher odds is better than PVE and only comparable to a 3-hour triathlon

Well as I mentioned, in somce games ganking is simply a must do.  Like MOBA's such as League of legend, they are team based games and catching someone out of position and using your team to your advantage is a way to turn a match around.  MOBA's are essentially the prime example I can think of when it comes to ganking in a positive light, since they're team based games.

I agree with Tolvo. For example, in RFO, there was a story related quest that had you kill several players from one of the other races. Most people just went to a neutral area, where random PvP is allowed and camped quest locations for low levels. You either had to beg someone high level to get rid of the camper, or wait till they log off. That's super wrong.

In Souls, the fights between players are usually even and the only difference are their respective PvP skills. However, thanks to that, it is still possible to defeat any opponent. Even with basic weapon, is possible to defeat max lvl player. Not talking about trading blows, but you can bleed the guy, or kick him from a ledge, lure him into mobs and more.

That's what I love about Souls and gankers have yet to learn.
Skill is more important than numbers in here.

I have a lot to say about ganking, mainly how to fight when out numbered. But I'm a bit sleepy already and probably wont cover as much as I could so I'll post more tomorrow.

How to tackle being outnumbered is perhaps where your build becomes rather important. Since a lot of succeeding against multiple opponents requires clever use of your skills, and what skills you have available are determined by your build.

Of everything Builds with Faith I feel have to easiest time against Squads. WoG is a super powerful tool in any pvp situation and it's ability to hit many targets, from many angles is unmatched. In addition WoG allows for tickstabs, which are (as has been mentioned) a great way to approach a fight because of the immunity you get while performing one. In addition many of the popular faith spells will function against many targets. GMB will stop any number of peoples CSSes from killing you quickly. VoS effects the entire area. TwoP also effects an area (and is a good deterrent against being surrounded if you have time to cast it) Replenishment is a little bland feeling compared to the others but if the fight drags on (as it often will) it's worth a good bit of health. The Gravelord Dances are not as reliable in my experience as fire tempest, but they do cover a nice sized area.

Int spells are a little bit less well off. Not too many of them will effect a large area, but they still can be good tools for keeping people off of you. Dark Bead is notoriously strong up close, and actually at mid range covers a decent sized cone. Strong Magic Shield will actually allow most shields to block two+ peoples worth of attacks without your stamina draining faster than theirs. Having HCSM or Pursuers up and running about unlocked, when the spell activates it will occupy whomever it targeted for a moment giving you breathing room to focus your attention on the other guy(s)

Pyromancy is somewhere in the middle in terms of raw effectiveness, dependent of course on the Chaos  spells. The lingering Fire from Chaos pyromancy is a great way to create space opponents can't be in, and if you can control where they are well you wont find yourself in a bad way surrounded. All of the Chaos spells are good to use but firestorm is perhaps the most notable, as it effects a huge area and does considerable damage.

I guess in Summation of this post I'd say that A big factor I've found in multi-target PvP is how well you control space. If you have the ability to say "no you cannot be here/there" it becomes much harder for people to surround of overwhelm you, as you can isolate targets with good spacial manipulation. A lot of this is also dependent on things like the area, pillars/trees, ledges, narrows spaces. Using the environment along with any spells you have at your disposal (or weapon special attacks such as the DKGA or Moonlight's explosions) Will increase your rate of survival quite a bit.

Very good stuff Jan, and I was planning to add a lot of that but it's good to have someone else's version of it as well in the thread.  Another useful Miracle, Force.  It is one of the greatest escape tools, since you can knock away three people then run to a better fighting position, not to mention how many casts it has.

^21   always good for low level backup