by Derpwraith Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:51 amfrom soft y u do dis
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Pulling a one shot in a fight club, whoops.
Derpwraith- Obsessed
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Ishiotzin- Casual
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its not Froms fault that people do stupid things to turn the game so easy that it dosent even is funny anymore, its the noobs fault
TheMeInTeam- Insomniac
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Ishiotzin wrote:its not Froms fault that people do stupid things to turn the game so easy that it dosent even is funny anymore, its the noobs fault
You're going to blame a player for equipping a valid, obvious in-game option and using it because they perceive it (arguably inaccurately) to be effective? Really?
I would rather fight 20 dark mages in a row than players who get angry at valid in-game choices but have no problem using mule'd crystal +5 weapons or glitches themselves. At least the dark mages are honest and aren't taking a logically inconsistent argumentative position; they're simply making a choice they feel is effective. Good for them, even if the results aren't.
Ishiotzin- Casual
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a valid in-game choice is different from creating a build so OP that kills players in 1-hit
TheMeInTeam- Insomniac
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You get hit by 5 different orbs. It's like calling any stunlock weapon "OP", calling any attack that combos into a backstab OP, or even any weapon that can 1-shot someone out of a riposte OP. Just silly. Even something like a falchion with a buff can be lethal to a no-poise build. Stun --> 2 fast follow up hits --> dead. Sure, you "can dodge" it, just like you can dodge pursuers, only dodging pursuers is easy.
There's a higher burden of proof for "OP" than that, unless everything is OP.
There's a higher burden of proof for "OP" than that, unless everything is OP.
Leet- Insomniac
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I don't call things OP, i just say in that instance, i couldn't overcome said tactic. It happens.
Ishiotzin- Casual
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it dosent matter if its 5 orbs or 1 the damage is still the same.TheMeInTeam wrote:You get hit by 5 different orbs.
and if the falchion does kill a no-poise player, its the players fault for not having some poise, if a player goes to a figth without poise knows that if he is hit is stunlock its a death
Derpwraith- Obsessed
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Ishiotzin wrote:it dosent matter if its 5 orbs or 1 the damage is still the same.TheMeInTeam wrote:You get hit by 5 different orbs.
and if the falchion does kill a no-poise player, its the players fault for not having some poise, if a player goes to a figth without poise knows that if he is hit is stunlock its a death
Actually buddy, the more orbs that legitimately land on an opponent the more damage it will do, it is simple multiplication of each orb's damage upon impact.
About having no poise, it's no one's fault, poise isn't required.
TheMeInTeam- Insomniac
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Well sure. I've been killed by most things in this game at least a few times too. I'd love it if I could play perfectly, but nobody can. I'm not even good enough to be close. That doesn't mean getting 1-shotted by pursuers is OP or a bad thing though. I consider pursuers/bead much less threatening than buff builds or skillful dex/pyros who have two weapons that they can use really well, and suspect that for most people who have some experience against dark magic that's true.I don't call things OP, i just say in that instance, i couldn't overcome said tactic. It happens.
The damage is only "the same" if you get hit by all five orbs. It is not uncommon to get hit by fewer than five orbs and survive, however.it dosent matter if its 5 orbs or 1 the damage is still the same.
and if the falchion does kill a no-poise player, its the players fault for not having some poise, if a player goes to a figth without poise knows that if he is hit is stunlock its a death
"it's the player's fault for not having poise"? Really? Okay then. I will use your logic and say that it's the player's fault for not dodging pursuers. Same logic, same conclusion.
This is before we get into the droves of OTHER hard counters to the spell, aside from simply dodging it:
- Ninja flip
- GMB
- Strong magic shield
- Force/WoG lol
- Havels or stone shield
- Fast roll one direction, then into pursuers (actually, this can be done with mid roll also).
- Crest shield will block beads unless you take them point blank
No matter where you allocate your stats, unless you're going for "giantmom", you will have allocated points into at least one scaling stat and probably have one of the above as alternative methods to counter dark magic, if you can't just roll through it.
Now, weapons with 50+ poise break are 2-shots if you don't glitch out. Are they "overpowered"? Is fire tempest overpowered? You can literally fire a 1500-1800+ damage attack with only 10 attunement, yet nobody complains about THAT. My SLB mace build will hit stun, hit ---> BS and essentially 1-shot anybody below 53 poise. Mace OP amirite?
There's no rational basis for calling dark magic OP on the basis that it can one shot in a game where tons of combos are lethal. It's also harsh to call someone's victory "ridiculous" or that it was a "no-skill" win, which happened early on in this thread. Apparently, defending someone for using something that wasn't even illegal in that FC isn't popular, but I don't care.
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StiffNipples wrote:Such a balanced and enriching addition to the game
jaythibodeau- Obsessed
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There's hardly anything rational about comparing combos to single hits.TheMeInTeam wrote:My SLB mace build will hit stun, hit ---> BS and essentially 1-shot anybody below 53 poise. Mace OP amirite?
There's no rational basis for calling dark magic OP on the basis that it can one shot in a game where tons of combos are lethal.
Of course combos are lethal. You're not taking the hit by itself. Dark Bead for example, only requires one action to set off. It's a single attack. The damage is split however. Does that make it a 'combo'? Not really. Plus, using the argument of combos, you could just use another Dark Bead. If it took two hits to equal the damage of something like Dark Bead, something doesn't feel right to some people.
Sentiel- Compulsory Poster
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I dunno about you, but when I use Dark Bead, it's not for it's damage as much as for it's ridiculous stagger potential, which can stagger even full Havel's and use that to get a free backstab. If done right, it can insta kill a lot of builds.
TheMeInTeam- Insomniac
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You're stunlocked. Once you enter that combo, you're dead.There's hardly anything rational about comparing combos to single hits.
Of course combos are lethal.
It's silly to claim that pressing r1 2-4 times in a row once you've stunlocked someone is materially more challenging OR functionally different from pressing it one time, especially when dodging that 1st weapon hit is a lot more difficult than dodging dark bead.
On top of that, magic has multiple hard counters that make it go from "1 shot" to "pathetic and trivial". The *only* way to do that to said "combo" in my example is to stack poise or use a glitch.
Here is your logic:
Choice A: Multiple built-in counters that trivialize it as a threat, available to a majority of builds that use scaling stats.
Choice B: One built-in counter that lets you escape.
You are seriously arguing choice A is stronger than choice B. I'm waiting for a logical reason as to why that is, aside from the silly notion that it's "harder" to press a button an additional time on a target that can't move. Let's hear it.
You might stagger GMB, but you'll only staggerstab if they're very close. You can't stagger strong magic shield, ninja flips, or things like havel's/stone at any distance.I dunno about you, but when I use Dark Bead, it's not for it's damage as much as for it's ridiculous stagger potential, which can stagger even full Havel's and use that to get a free backstab. If done right, it can insta kill a lot of builds.
Ishiotzin- Casual
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i agreejaythibodeau wrote:There's hardly anything rational about comparing combos to single hits.
Of course combos are lethal. You're not taking the hit by itself. Dark Bead for example, only requires one action to set off. It's a single attack. The damage is split however. Does that make it a 'combo'? Not really. Plus, using the argument of combos, you could just use another Dark Bead. If it took two hits to equal the damage of something like Dark Bead, something doesn't feel right to some people.
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Well there can be downfalls to builds that one-shot I suppose. But hopefully Dark Souls 2 will balance this sort of thing out a bit.
Ishiotzin- Casual
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o hope so, but i want them to make a great story like the one in dark souls, the figth mechanics is not that bad
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Same can be said for my example. My point was that you can't compare a combo to a single hit. Both have the same end result, which is what you're getting at, but the process is different.TheMeInTeam wrote:
You're stunlocked. Once you enter that combo, you're dead.
Never said it was challenging. It definitely requires pressing something else though. I meant that in a way to show that it isn't a combo, and shouldn't be compared to such. How difficult something is to dodge is for the most part, subjective. But, Dark Bead fires faster than the Mace (at 45 Dex anyways, I don't know about lower levels of Dex), the Mace has lower range (although, Dark Bead is really only effective up close), and the Mace requires stamina. Dark Bead also can't be blocked easily. So I fail to understand how the weapon is more effective in terms of hitting your opponent. Other then of course, the weapon having more 'durability' so to speak. 6 Casts can go by fast.
It's silly to claim that pressing r1 2-4 times in a row once you've stunlocked someone is materially more challenging OR functionally different from pressing it one time, especially when dodging that 1st weapon hit is a lot more difficult than dodging dark bead.
What are you arguing against here? I can say the same about your combo (except for the claim about having less counters). This proves nothing. I'd assume that that combo has just about the same amount of counters anyways.
On top of that, magic has multiple hard counters that make it go from "1 shot" to "pathetic and trivial". The *only* way to do that to said "combo" in my example is to stack poise or use a glitch.
I am seriously arguing that choice A is stronger than choice B. If one attack needs only a full direct hit to OHKO, while the other requires two, how am I wrong? Obviously you're saying that both are an effective means to achieving the end goal, which is to kill your opponent. I'm just saying that they aren't the same 'methods'.
Here is your logic:
Choice A: Multiple built-in counters that trivialize it as a threat, available to a majority of builds that use scaling stats.
Choice B: One built-in counter that lets you escape.
You are seriously arguing choice A is stronger than choice B. I'm waiting for a logical reason as to why that is, aside from the silly notion that it's "harder" to press a button an additional time on a target that can't move. Let's hear it.
Never stated that it was harder, just that it required one extra movement. It was meant to separate a combo from a single attack. Therefore, it can't be compared. Unless of course, you want to argue two uses of Dark Bead vs that Mace combo.
On a side note, I see your example as odd. It should be stated as this:
Choice A: Multiple built-in counters that trivialize it as a threat, available to a majority of builds that use scaling stats.
Choice B: Multiple built-in counters that trivialize it as a threat, available to a majority of builds that use scaling stats.
You seem to have bias towards which one is harder to defend against. Unless of course, you explain fully the counters to each. However, I'm not going to argue that. I only stated that you were trying to compare two different things. I'd rather not get sucked into an argument about how I don't like Dark Bead.
Sentiel- Compulsory Poster
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@TheMeInTeam
I mostly use it against gankers and overly aggresive buffers, so that backstab is usually guaranteed.
SMS? Ever since it got patched I have NEVER met anyone using it against me. I would just Shotel the guy, or wait it out. How long does it last? 15 seconds?
Greatshield users get Shotel 24/7 from me, no need to bother with spells.
DWGR is a problem I'll admit. I can sometimes get them with a surprise DB, but I prefer to stagger them with melee and go for stagger bs, or stunlock.
If I really wanted to stagger someone with a spell (like we can't kick) I would use Force instead of DB. I just wanted to point out that DB has more uses than damage dealing.
I mostly use it against gankers and overly aggresive buffers, so that backstab is usually guaranteed.
SMS? Ever since it got patched I have NEVER met anyone using it against me. I would just Shotel the guy, or wait it out. How long does it last? 15 seconds?
Greatshield users get Shotel 24/7 from me, no need to bother with spells.
DWGR is a problem I'll admit. I can sometimes get them with a surprise DB, but I prefer to stagger them with melee and go for stagger bs, or stunlock.
If I really wanted to stagger someone with a spell (like we can't kick) I would use Force instead of DB. I just wanted to point out that DB has more uses than damage dealing.
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Your point is incorrect. You absolutely can compare them, because once that person lets himself get hit by that stunning blow, or by the pursuers, he's dead in both cases. Nothing else the player taking the hit can do. How is that not comparable?Same can be said for my example. My point was that you can't compare a combo to a single hit. Both have the same end result, which is what you're getting at, but the process is different.
Because when the first hit causes a stunlock, the remaining hits are going to land. Isn't this why pursuers often lands all 5 hits?I am seriously arguing that choice A is stronger than choice B. If one attack needs only a full direct hit to OHKO, while the other requires two, how am I wrong?
I gave the counters to dark bead/pursuers already. There are a few counters to stunlock weapons: dodging them (which is identical to all attacks and thus not relevant for consideration), blocking them (similarly, can be done for everything including dark magic despite your claim, though you need a specific type of shield), or poise (which does not counter magic effectively).You seem to have bias towards which one is harder to defend against. Unless of course, you explain fully the counters to each.
The unique counter to stunlock weapons is enough poise where avoiding the stunlock is trivial. The other counters are common to all weapons.
But I used the hammers as an example to be ridiculous on purpose; it is an example of a weapon that can be easily dodged, but if it hits you while you lack defense for it, you're dead.
Dark magic is also an example of a weapon that can be easily dodged, but will kill you if you're hit while lacking defenses for it. You claim these things are not comparable, but in function they're very comparable. I stand by the assertion that any un-breakable (without a glitch) combo initiation is functionally equivalent to a 1-shot, because finishing said combo for the kill is generally trivial. I'm still waiting to hear why that isn't the case.
Makes sense, but is kind of out of the scope of this threadI mostly use it against gankers and overly aggresive buffers, so that backstab is usually guaranteed.
. Nobody cares about 1-shotting gankers, except the gankers.SMS isn't ideal, I admit, but INT builds could simply run a mirror'd build anyway if they don't like their traditional "counter" option. STR, FAI, and Ninja-flip type builds all have an easy time.SMS? Ever since it got patched I have NEVER met anyone using it against me. I would just Shotel the guy, or wait it out. How long does it last? 15 seconds?
Greatshield users get Shotel 24/7 from me, no need to bother with spells.
A build that invests heavily in magic is not going to have a super strong shotel. In fact, a super strong shotel isn't possible. Wielding it means forgoing either a shield or a more damaging weapon, meaning a great shield user that sees one needs only to two-hand his weapon or use a weapon that wins the poise/dps race over a shotel. Most greatshield players do not play to its strengths, and admittedly stamina grass cuts into them a little.
Actually, beads have a similar problem to the shotel. The silly assertion that it's a serious move to melee with the catalyst is amusing, but it's not super viable. A catalyst out means either no shield or no melee weapon, and both of those have obvious implications. Not to mention if one runs a catalyst all the time, people should be wary of spells. The catalyst can be worth it, but one gives something up to have one out, and that something isn't always the best move.
jaythibodeau- Obsessed
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Because, yes, the end result is the same, but two hits is not the same as one. Sure, you can possibly try to compare it. But it isn't technically right. If one hits OHKOs, and the other needs two to achieve that end result, the first one does more damage and is essentially more efficient for that (maybe not overall, but for immediate damage, possibly).TheMeInTeam wrote:
Your point is incorrect. You absolutely can compare them, because once that person lets himself get hit by that stunning blow, or by the pursuers, he's dead in both cases. Nothing else the player taking the hit can do. How is that not comparable?
That's like comparing this:
A = 10
B = 5
B is the exact same thing as A so long as you have two of it.
Which makes sense, but not when saying that B is on par with A. A only needs one of itself to be effective. While B needs to have two of itself to compare. I might as well compare 30 hits from a Dagger to a Greataxe by that reasoning. Sure, they mean the same thing in the end, it's just that one is strong enough to stand on it's own, and doesn't need something else to boost it. I might as well use the Greataxe twenty-nine more times too. For perspective, I'm trying to compare:
A = 10
B = 5
Therefore, A is better. If you want to add combos into this, you need to add them up accordingly.
A = 10 X 2
B = 5 X 2
Yes, but often doesn't matter. It's still just the effect of that one spell. One spell is equal to one attack. Not a combo, so to speak.
Because when the first hit causes a stunlock, the remaining hits are going to land. Isn't this why pursuers often lands all 5 hits?
My blocking claim was, "Dark Bead also can't be blocked easily." So I'm not sure how that's wrong. Here are some things to 'counter' that Mace.
I gave the counters to dark bead/pursuers already. There are a few counters to stunlock weapons: dodging them (which is identical to all attacks and thus not relevant for consideration), blocking them (similarly, can be done for everything including dark magic despite your claim, though you need a specific type of shield), or poise (which does not counter magic effectively).
- Anything near double its length that's a Dex weapon works amazingly. Range can make plenty of powerful offensives seem obsolete. Such as the Spear.
- Parrying. Magic can't be parried.
- VoS blocks the enemy from casting that initial SLB.
- GMB blocks the magic damage
Basically, I can just copy what you said from earlier. Unless, if we were just considering a melee weapon by itself. But then that wouldn't be an easy combo into a KO now would it?
That can be true when just considering the weapon by itself. I can agree with that.
The unique counter to stunlock weapons is enough poise where avoiding the stunlock is trivial. The other counters are common to all weapons.
Eh, fair enough. That could apply to most other things.
But I used the hammers as an example to be ridiculous on purpose; it is an example of a weapon that can be easily dodged, but if it hits you while you lack defense for it, you're dead.
The end purpose is to kill the opponent. I never said that that wasn't the case. Infact, I stated plenty of times that they are similar in that regard. Also, although it is a very trivial difference, that difference exists. Which changes its meaning. What I'm getting at is:
Dark magic is also an example of a weapon that can be easily dodged, but will kill you if you're hit while lacking defenses for it. You claim these things are not comparable, but in function they're very comparable. I stand by the assertion that any un-breakable (without a glitch) combo initiation is functionally equivalent to a 1-shot, because finishing said combo for the kill is generally trivial. I'm still waiting to hear why that isn't the case.
Strength in numbers is not the same thing as something powerful enough to stand on its own. Sure, they might have the same power in the end, but it's better to just have that more powerful option in better numbers.
Here's a real example.
http://mmdks.com/203b Here we have a longsword by itself.
http://mmdks.com/3ile Here's a Cestus by itself. When comparing things, they should be on equal, singular grounds. If we're comparing that initial AR, the longsword would win.
Not trying to compare it like this:
http://mmdks.com/203b Here we have a longsword by itself.
http://mmdks.com/3ilf Here's a Cestus with a buff.
It's wrong to call things 'equal' when something needs a boost from something else in order to compare (such as having to hit twice).
Sentiel- Compulsory Poster
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I actually tried SMS yesterday. People aren't used to it seems and just spammed their spells anyway. Although I forgot it doesn't last very long which got me killed in the end anyway.
Shotel is a weapon I really like. It got me the most kills out of all weapons I use. It's not that effective by itself, but it's an awesome finisher. When HP gets low, people tend to turtle a lot and one surprise, quick Shotel R2 usually ends the fight immediately. As for the greatshield users. Unless I invade some ridiculously high SL, greatshield guys usually use big Str weapons and try to be tanky and trade with you, or they use spears. Str weapons are usually slow anough for me to get a few hits with Shotel before they switch to two handing, whereas I switch to Rapier and it's poking time. Spear guys are much more problematic, especially since Shotel can't trade with spears effectively (depends on spear and presence of Leo Ring though). Then I usually have to rely on parryig, or turn the fight into battle of attrition.
Shotel is a weapon I really like. It got me the most kills out of all weapons I use. It's not that effective by itself, but it's an awesome finisher. When HP gets low, people tend to turtle a lot and one surprise, quick Shotel R2 usually ends the fight immediately. As for the greatshield users. Unless I invade some ridiculously high SL, greatshield guys usually use big Str weapons and try to be tanky and trade with you, or they use spears. Str weapons are usually slow anough for me to get a few hits with Shotel before they switch to two handing, whereas I switch to Rapier and it's poking time. Spear guys are much more problematic, especially since Shotel can't trade with spears effectively (depends on spear and presence of Leo Ring though). Then I usually have to rely on parryig, or turn the fight into battle of attrition.
TheMeInTeam- Insomniac
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There is where I'm pointing out the mistake. Bx1 in the situation I described guarantees Bx2..even Bx4. However, Ax1 does not guarantee Ax2 and instead adds no extra opportunity for a 2nd A, even if it stuns.For perspective, I'm trying to compare:
A = 10
B = 5
Therefore, A is better. If you want to add combos into this, you need to add them up accordingly.
A = 10 X 2
B = 5 X 2
To showcase how ridiculous the position that "single hit is all that matters" here, let's do it this way:
A = 2
B = 5
After all, pursuers is 5 attacks, and they are not guaranteed to land unless one staggers the opponent so that they can't escape the others. Based upon your logic, virtually every weapon in the game is superior on a "per hit" basis to pursuers because any one hit from a pursuer does less damage and it is therefore inferior and not comparable.
Range is no hard counter. Mace user can close easily while blocking on a spear for example. Spears can't even dead angle glitch unless you do something really odd.Anything near double its length that's a Dex weapon works amazingly. Range can make plenty of powerful offensives seem obsolete. Such as the Spear
It's a little odd to give a counter to every non-whip weapon, but sure. Although strictly speaking, you can negate the vast majority of magic damage via partial parry and keep position.Parrying. Magic can't be parried
VoS is anything but a reliable anti-buff. By the time you're casting it, it's too late to interrupt the buff. VoS is stellar against things like WoG, BF, and Dark Bead. It's not a viable buff counter.VoS blocks the enemy from casting that initial SLB
How does blocking magic damage help against lightning damage?GMB blocks the magic damage
Then why are you claiming dark magic is overpowered? It can't possibly stand on its own vs someone competent, just as a mace can't. If you screw up, either can kill you without you getting a second chance, and as you yourself admitted the difference is "trivial". How can two things, one considered "overpowered" and the other almost never seen, have trivial functional differences in their ability to kill people for a single mistake?Strength in numbers is not the same thing as something powerful enough to stand on its own.
I gave the SLB buff example because casting pursuers is harder to set up than 2 handing a mace. However, even without SLB, stunlock staggerstab (something the recipient can do nothing about) will 1-shot most builds. I have a lvl 100 which has accomplished just that many times without any buffs whatsoever, and that number would climb even more even with pathetic boosts like resins.
Also, without stacking boosts like bellowing ring or crown of dusk, pursuers isn't a one-shot. An unboosted pursuers will hit for what, 1k tops but usually less? That's chaos rapier backstab territory, not one-shot territory.
They probably use them like that because you need 30+ str to use anything better than the Eagle Shield (which is pretty good for stability but awful vs non-physical in some respects). If they just bust out something like the manserpent sword + greatshield, spears as you say, or are on a quality build and can use things like straight swords effectively then a greatshield can be used to good effect.As for the greatshield users. Unless I invade some ridiculously high SL, greatshield guys usually use big Str weapons and try to be tanky and trade with you, or they use spears
I agree that the shotel is a great finisher, but IMO it's only a true problem for a decent player + greatshield if he's already been outplayed and is low health. Otherwise its low range and limited options for opponent to block or close distance gives the shield guy some leverage.
TL;DR Version:
The most fair basis to judge something in terms of being strong compared to other options is how many mistakes it allows the opponent in a given situation. Anything where 1 mistake = near certain death is comparable to other options where 1 mistake = near certain death. There are situations where people could survive being hit by pursuers, but not an unbuffed stagger-stab, and vice versa. With only the evidence presented, we have no reason to believe that pursuers is materially stronger than any other in-game option in existence that is capable of dealing out death based on a single mistake, and no reason to look upon various options that cause the same end result (1 mistake = death) differently, in FC or otherwise.
jaythibodeau- Obsessed
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Ah, ok. I see where I made that mistake. So I suppose that I'm talking about when all of the projectiles hit. Not one or a few.TheMeInTeam wrote:
There is where I'm pointing out the mistake. Bx1 in the situation I described guarantees Bx2..even Bx4. However, Ax1 does not guarantee Ax2 and instead adds no extra opportunity for a 2nd A, even if it stuns.
To showcase how ridiculous the position that "single hit is all that matters"
I never had the ridiculous position that, "single hit is all that matters". If I did, directly quote me. It's just that one can achieve killing the opponent by itself.
On a side note, can Dark Bead (not talking about pursuers anyways) be comboed with anything? I haven't actually used it a whole lot or even tried anything else to hit with it. If it can, then by all means, it can be compared to other combos.
(Pretty much the same mistake I made in the earlier paragraph.)
here, let's do it this way:
A = 2
B = 5
After all, pursuers is 5 attacks, and they are not guaranteed to land unless one staggers the opponent so that they can't escape the others. Based upon your logic, virtually every weapon in the game is superior on a "per hit" basis to pursuers because any one hit from a pursuer does less damage and it is therefore inferior and not comparable.
However, now that it's clarified that I'm talking about when all of the beads from Dark Bead hits, and I clearly stated that Dark Bead still technically counts as a single attack (who the heck fires Dark Bead from far away anyways?), I don't quite get how it is considered inferior (based upon that statement you made to try and show my flaw).
Oh? Range isn't something that counters short range weaponry? Or at least, isn't considered a hard counter. Which is something that needs to be defined.
Range is no hard counter. Mace user can close easily while blocking on a spear for example. Spears can't even dead angle glitch unless you do something really odd.
Spears can just keep out of the Maces range. Sure, Spears can't dead angle. But it's not like they're the only effective long melee weapon.
I was pretty much doing the same thing as naming blocking as a counter.
It's a little odd to give a counter to every non-whip weapon, but sure. Although strictly speaking, you can negate the vast majority of magic damage via partial parry and keep position.
But yeah, although damage is mostly negated. At least you can't be riposted.
Ok, fair enough.
VoS is anything but a reliable anti-buff. By the time you're casting it, it's too late to interrupt the buff. VoS is stellar against things like WoG, BF, and Dark Bead. It's not a viable buff counter.
Ahhh, forgot that it did lightning.How does blocking magic damage help against lightning damage?
DMB still works at least. Or stuff like Magic Weapon.
"It can't possibly stand on its own vs someone competent, just as a mace can't."
Then why are you claiming dark magic is overpowered? It can't possibly stand on its own vs someone competent, just as a mace can't. If you screw up, either can kill you without you getting a second chance, and as you yourself admitted the difference is "trivial". How can two things, one considered "overpowered" and the other almost never seen, have trivial functional differences in their ability to kill people for a single mistake?
^ This statement specifically, proves nothing. It's just an assumption.
It can stand on it's own. That's why. By calling it trivial, I meant that in a way to show that that slight difference changed the meaning of how they can be compared.
This is screaming anecdotal to me.
I gave the SLB buff example because casting pursuers is harder to set up than 2 handing a mace. However, even without SLB, stunlock staggerstab (something the recipient can do nothing about) will 1-shot most builds. I have a lvl 100 which has accomplished just that many times without any buffs whatsoever, and that number would climb even more even with pathetic boosts like resins.
That's without even considering what made that damage. What was the SL, catalyst, opponents SL, armor, anything that even factors into that? Besides, it IS 1-shot territory in all technicality. 573 is lowest possible HP when considering just levels. You didn't state what this '1-shot territory' was based on.
Also, without stacking boosts like bellowing ring or crown of dusk, pursuers isn't a one-shot. An unboosted pursuers will hit for what, 1k tops but usually less? That's chaos rapier backstab territory, not one-shot territory.
Based upon what you are saying, sure, Dark Bead isn't overpowered when considering it by itself when compared to combos. It's kinda odd though to ignore whether or not Dark Bead / Pursuers even has combos for themselves though (assuming that they might, such as simply using Dark Bead and Pursuers together.)The most fair basis to judge something in terms of being strong compared to other options is how many mistakes it allows the opponent in a given situation. Anything where 1 mistake = near certain death is comparable to other options where 1 mistake = near certain death. There are situations where people could survive being hit by pursuers, but not an unbuffed stagger-stab, and vice versa. With only the evidence presented, we have no reason to believe that pursuers is materially stronger than any other in-game option in existence that is capable of dealing out death based on a single mistake, and no reason to look upon various options that cause the same end result (1 mistake = death) differently, in FC or otherwise.
TheMeInTeam- Insomniac
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Despite my apparent support for dark magic here, almost all of my experience is against it. I don't know. I know you can parry someone and if your build is optimized to do so do more damage with it than a riposte, but I'm not sure if anything else can freeze someone in place long enough to land a full bead to the face, with the obvious exception of the "combo" from stone greatsword 2hr2.
On a side note, can Dark Bead (not talking about pursuers anyways) be comboed with anything? I haven't actually used it a whole lot or even tried anything else to hit with it. If it can, then by all means, it can be compared to other combos.
Under that theoretical construct, it's because an individual bead or pursuer doesn't do a huge amount of damage, and to truly make it a 1-shot you need to land most/all of them.I don't quite get how it is considered inferior (based upon that statement you made to try and show my flaw).
Of course, it's still not a one-shot without significant investments in both stats and equipment, and the crown of dusk in particular creates a vulnerability on top of it.
You say dark magic can stand on its own, but I see precious little evidence of that, if any. Certainly, you'd want to have at least ONE other thing to handle situations where the opponent drops down a GMB or simply raises his havel's shield. Those two things suggest very strongly that dark magic is not something that can "stand on its own". The mace is more arguable, but it has a few notable weaknesses that would make it very difficult to compete with certain setups. Maybe not quite AS hard countered in the sense of "you can't possibly damage someone with this for 40 seconds", but still countered.It can stand on it's own. That's why. By calling it trivial, I meant that in a way to show that that slight difference changed the meaning of how they can be compared.
Okay. Let's go with something that isn't. Take a 2h mace at 27 str and a hornet ring (low investment, lower than pursuers needs to 1-shot in fact, because pursuers would be using a ring also). Now, how much damage do you get from 2 hits and a hornet backstab? Notably, there's nothing anecdotal about this situation anymore; we can calculate it if you wish. Keep in mind that if that first hit stuns, the 2nd hit and the stab are easily accomplished consistently. We're talking in the neighborhood of 1500-1600 damage unbuffed. Even with bellowing ring, you'll struggle to put that up with 1 shot of beads/pursuers unless you ALSO stack crown and have some heavy int investment (more than you'd need to simply cast the spells, and a lot more than say 13 levels in a bandit).This is screaming anecdotal to me.
We're looking for nigh-guaranteed damage after first hit. This is probably a more clear way to state how the difference isn't as great as you say and that they're pretty comparable after all.
Let's say 1500-1800 hp. If we go base stats the soul arrow family can 1-shot people, so that's not useful discussion.That's without even considering what made that damage. What was the SL, catalyst, opponents SL, armor, anything that even factors into that? Besides, it IS 1-shot territory in all technicality. 573 is lowest possible HP when considering just levels. You didn't state what this '1-shot territory' was based on.
But, if you're going to give pursuers or beads 20+ levels in addition to what you need to wield it to max scaling, it's fair to give the same #levels to other builds. Same with equipment setup.
ARE there any dark magic combos that can be landed consistently? Their cast time is pretty long, so the realistic way would be a follow-up, if you can sufficiently land the 1st attack on dark magic and have it be meaningful.
I'm still not seeing how the kill potential or difficulty is materially different from killing using other methods.
jaythibodeau- Obsessed
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Eh, ok. Dark magic blasts through most shields anyways. I might as well try messing around with some stuff later at 45 Dex and see what I can do with it.TheMeInTeam wrote:
Despite my apparent support for dark magic here, almost all of my experience is against it. I don't know. I know you can parry someone and if your build is optimized to do so do more damage with it than a riposte, but I'm not sure if anything else can freeze someone in place long enough to land a full bead to the face, with the obvious exception of the "combo" from stone greatsword 2hr2.
Ok. So it's mainly about when most/all land.
Under that theoretical construct, it's because an individual bead or pursuer doesn't do a huge amount of damage, and to truly make it a 1-shot you need to land most/all of them.
Not really. By itself, I've tested that one bead from Dark bead does 205 to the Hollows outside of Firelink. Times that by 7 and you can get a general idea of what Dark Bead can do when meeting only it's minimal requirements and landing all of them at close range. but of course, obviously stat investment or equipment will be needed for a one-shot at higher levels. It's to be expected.
Of course, it's still not a one-shot without significant investments in both stats and equipment, and the crown of dusk in particular creates a vulnerability on top of it.
By being able to stand on it's own, I didn't mean in general. We're talking OHKOs/high damage here, without the help of other stuff. Which is something Dark Bead seems to excel at.
You say dark magic can stand on its own, but I see precious little evidence of that, if any. Certainly, you'd want to have at least ONE other thing to handle situations where the opponent drops down a GMB or simply raises his havel's shield. Those two things suggest very strongly that dark magic is not something that can "stand on its own". The mace is more arguable, but it has a few notable weaknesses that would make it very difficult to compete with certain setups. Maybe not quite AS hard countered in the sense of "you can't possibly damage someone with this for 40 seconds", but still countered.
Oddly enough, I've only been discussing Dark Bead up until post 73. I'm not even sure why you keep bringing it up in an attempt to make a counter-point. I even clearly stated this, "not talking about pursuers anyways".
Okay. Let's go with something that isn't. Take a 2h mace at 27 str and a hornet ring (low investment, lower than pursuers needs to 1-shot in fact, because pursuers would be using a ring also). Now, how much damage do you get from 2 hits and a hornet backstab? Notably, there's nothing anecdotal about this situation anymore; we can calculate it if you wish. Keep in mind that if that first hit stuns, the 2nd hit and the stab are easily accomplished consistently. We're talking in the neighborhood of 1500-1600 damage unbuffed. Even with bellowing ring, you'll struggle to put that up with 1 shot of beads/pursuers unless you ALSO stack crown and have some heavy int investment (more than you'd need to simply cast the spells, and a lot more than say 13 levels in a bandit).
A Pyromancer is better for only using 27 Strength, since its SL stops at 16. A Dark Bead build that stops at SL 16 would be like this: http://mmdks.com/3j1a
Here's some testing from attacking some of the Hollows outside of Firelink.
From one bead, it did 265. Times that by 7, that's 1855.
I have a hard time understanding how the spell has trouble keeping up.
I suppose you could say that that damage is comparable at such a low level. Dark Bead doesn't benefit much from such an awkward SL, since it already reaches 180 adjustment at lowest possible requirements, but only reaches 185 at said level. So, given that one build, I'd say that Dark Bead nearly outclasses that in most other SLs. Especially high ones.
We're looking for nigh-guaranteed damage after first hit. This is probably a more clear way to state how the difference isn't as great as you say and that they're pretty comparable after all.
Ok.
Let's say 1500-1800 hp. If we go base stats the soul arrow family can 1-shot people, so that's not useful discussion.
Indeed.
But, if you're going to give pursuers or beads 20+ levels in addition to what you need to wield it to max scaling, it's fair to give the same #levels to other builds. Same with equipment setup.
Uhhh, their cast time is long? Where did you get that idea? At 45 Dex it's godly, and even at base level, it's as fast as a 2H Mace swing.
ARE there any dark magic combos that can be landed consistently? Their cast time is pretty long, so the realistic way would be a follow-up, if you can sufficiently land the 1st attack on dark magic and have it be meaningful.
Not. Talking. About. Killing. Potential. I've clearly stated that both kill. What I've been talking about, is exactly what you've said yourself here, "But, if you're going to give pursuers or beads 20+ levels in addition to what you need to wield it to max scaling, it's fair to give the same #levels to other builds. Same with equipment setup." That is how things need to be compared. Because, oddly enough, you seem to contradict yourself. You said the statement that I quoted, but, still insist that Dark Bead should be compared to a hit stun combo. Which is it? Keep in mind, having to land a secondary hit applies to this rule too. It is, fair, after all.
I'm still not seeing how the kill potential or difficulty is materially different from killing using other methods.
