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    Should i feel bad for using a no skill build in the forest?

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    Post by Moalover Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:35 pm

    Being honest the forest has a very low fair fight posibility, i recently made a build like this:

    http://mmdks.com/3o2s

    it requires no skill at all, just a big meat tank that hits very very hard with the obsidian greatsword +5 or the balder's sword +15 (even thoug i dont have good dex) and darkmoon blade buff, and has every needed miracle against gankers. But somehow i feel guilty that's why i only use it in the forest and only use miracles in 1 vs many battles sad
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    Post by Leet Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:01 pm

    Everything in the game requires some amount of skill to properly use. I don't understand the point of the thread though. Why would you feel bad? Who cares what other people think. It's a game, play it how you wish. 
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    Post by Moalover Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:08 pm

    Oh sorry, the point of the thread is just to look for opinions hehe, i say it's no skill build because all you have to do is spam r1 and everything dies, it kinda feels cheap straight face and makes me get some hate mail ,but yes it's true, in the end it's just a game.
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    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:25 pm

    Is fat rolling really worth it for ~100 more HP?

    Also, you're using the wrong talisman.

    Honestly, it's not too bad. At the end of the day, it's a build really susceptible to the Hornet Ring.
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    Post by Moalover Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:28 pm

    Sorry completely new to faith build here, some1 told me recently that with 30 faith i should stick to that talisman, i'll check that out asap big grin.

    And yeah i was considering changing TBR for havel's, thank you!.
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    Post by reim0027 Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:00 pm

    Nothing wrong with a "no skill" build. The forest really isn't your place for skill. Well, stereotypical skill that is. The Forest requires different types of skill. Bring any build you want there.
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    Post by skarekrow13 Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:14 pm

    Feeling bad should start when having fun ends.

    My only taboos for pvp are hacking and sending hate mail
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    Post by GrinTwist Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:24 pm

    No build is wrong for the forest, so don't worry about using a 'no skill' build and effectively killing someone with it. I don't see a problem with using it, although I would recommend using a different talisman when you're using the build.
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    Post by SirArchmage Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:31 am

    skarekrow13 wrote:Feeling bad should start when having fun ends.

    My only taboos for pvp are hacking and sending hate mail
    Fun thing, sometimes I get on my friends account, and start doing PvP in Dark Souls or other games and send the most immature and stereotypical hatemail I can think of(he has no rep on Xbox anymore because of me). twisted 

    Anyways, like the above people said, it is the forest. Don't bother that it doesn't take much skill to use. Shouldn't even bother about it in general. As well as the fact that with every build there can be an easy way to use it(like you are doing) and a harder, yet more effective way. Every build benefits from skill and knowledge, even GiantDads and Darkmoon blade Falchion R1 spammers. So, no matter how much you are winning right now, just remember. You will get better yet still. Or be like me, and get worse. Either one.


    By the way, number of hatemail you received=your high score.
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    Post by Moalover Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:32 am

    Worry not people cheers  just picked up the canvas talismas haha, and yeah you are all right, i'm still getting some hate mail thoug but just goin to ignore it and keep having fun bounce
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    Post by raecor14 Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:34 am

    meh, to me id rather play a more tricky build, but if you enjoy this build. go for it.
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    Post by Serious_Much Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:44 am

    Well with that build, while you have a significant amount of firepower, defence and poise- you lack any kind of speed. Your skill to play it is to manage the fat roll and manage terrible stamina regen- those two things are actually pretty hard to do well and if you can work your way round them, fine for you.

    Against gankers you're gonna be vulnerable if they are faster than you- yes you have TWoP and WoG, but that's not gonna mean **** if they can run from TWoP as you're a fat roller.

    Also- tiny beings ring? you must be mad! If you put on havels ring then you instantly go up to mid roll- that's a vast improvement without even using a second braincell silly
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    Post by TheMeInTeam Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:28 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Is fat rolling really worth it for ~100 more HP?

    Also, you're using the wrong talisman.

    Honestly, it's not too bad. At the end of the day, it's a build really susceptible to the Hornet Ring.
    Not to mention virtually any gank squad heavy on magic or with TWoP themselves.  Eagle shield won't have a lot to say to multiple iterations of dark bead, pursuers, or crystal soul spears, and while fatrolling he'll be a beacon to that, not to mention opposing WoG since you can't really fatroll punish it.
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    Post by Back Lot Basher Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:45 pm

    With that much faith, I'd go with Great Magic Barrier to protect yourself against Pursuers and all that other magic.
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    Post by TheMeInTeam Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:51 pm

    ^ Good luck casting GMB and then fatroll charging a gank squad lol.  If you spawn into it then it's even worse.

    IMO before you can even consider a forest invasion build "no skill", you have to first make it more consistently effective big grin.
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    Post by Back Lot Basher Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:05 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:^ Good luck casting GMB and then fatroll charging a gank squad lol.  If you spawn into it then it's even worse.

    IMO before you can even consider a forest invasion build "no skill", you have to first make it more consistently effective big grin.
    Then again, I'd never be fat rolling either.  Strip that armor off and get fast rolling.  Dodge into them and then WoG.  Either way, it's a crapshoot.

    The only time I ever have any luck against gankers is with a high level mage.  If I meet someone who is alone, it's swords only.  The minute I see mobs, out come pursuers, CSS, and DB.
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    Post by TheMeInTeam Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:41 pm

    I usually do parkour or ladder abuse for forest gankers.  A lot of them won't even consider following you down that ladder, and if they do just fire tempest them lol.  Then it's just a matter of getting another invader and going for the 2v2.  Really any build can be competitive using such a tactic, or hiding with mushroom parents/bearcats.

    If not going that kind of route, I would instead recommend many copies of tempest with bellowing + CoD, or ring of sun's first born + hornet + rapier and just go tickstabbing on people with like 9 WoG copies.  I don't think any build in the game except a pure VIT gouge in heavy armor could survive power within + WoG + Rapier backstab with hornet.  Heck, you could probably drop sun's firstborn and run lingering to make PW less painful, and just run around in CoD, that should be good enough to basically 1-shot people.

    The usual suspects like powered beads/pursuers are great too of course.

    Surprisingly good and easy to pull off is just using an unlocked dead-angling zweihander, even elemental.  Try to suddenly turn on them and catch them with it and just power on with the stunlock.

    Lots of options really, and any of them will beat a fatroll tank buff build with one WoG copy.  Some of them take less kill too big grin.
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    Post by Moalover Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:11 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:^ Good luck casting GMB and then fatroll charging a gank squad lol.  If you spawn into it then it's even worse.

    IMO before you can even consider a forest invasion build "no skill", you have to first make it more consistently effective big grin.
    What exactly would you do to survive spawning into a "gank squad" as far as i know if they are somewhat decent players you are as good as dead, and fatroll was already taken care of, replaced TBR for havel's big grin.
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    Post by skarekrow13 Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:15 pm

    I always have WoG ready for gank spawning. Especially near the stairs. Wait for them to rush, roll past. Blast them off the ledge
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    Post by lorenzo110 Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:15 pm

    Play the way you feel. The choice is totally yours. But with that being said I will say crown of dusk, power within, crystal catalyst, spamming dark beads, or wrath really does not require much skill what so ever to utilize. I am pretty sure most honest veteran players will freely admit this about these "easy mode" or "glass canon" fighting styles. Anyone can do it and fight this way and see a substantial rise in win average. If winning is your sole purpose in playing then those tactics are perfect for you. Skill is different then buff fighting. Remember they are called buffs for a reason. They are to give you a fighting advantage over all your opponents, with maybe the exception of those fighting you the same way. Buffs give a substantial boost in both magic and weapon damage.

    Unfortunately most people don't believe this about buffs, mainly because their play style incorporates these items and spells to boost damage. Sure these items are legitimately in the game for all to use but one should ask themselves this about buffs: In a 1v1 fight who is fighting fair a guy using regular armor and an un buffed katana or a person using crown of dusk, crystal catalyst, one of the dragon magic buff rings or princess ring, OHKO bead spamming, as well as wrath, with a hornet ring, and using a sunlight blade or darkmoon or crystal magic buffed rapier. If you really have to think about who is the player who is actually challenging themselves more in the game by utilizing a true skill play style then you may want to spend more time on this wiki learning the difference between non buffing and buffing items and their weapon or magic damage outputs.

    I personally have more respect for players who make it a personal challenge on themselves by fighting in a no buff fighting style. Those guys are bad a$$. I had a really ignorant player who said he was a veteran player state he fights in a no buff fighting style, yet he uses hornet ring and claims it is not a buff. Really people? Hornet ring is not a buff? Even though it didn't help him in the fight I was really surprised by his claim that he was a clean fighter who doesn't resort to buffs. I personally see more Japanese fighters who do not utilize buffs. These great players tend to play simply for the fun of the game and the challenge to improve their skill. Most others I see tend to play with the "must win at all cost" mentality.

    So with that being said again it comes down to your own personal choice. Do you want to improve skill wise? Or is your main purpose in this game to win every single fight. Buffs are a crutch. They are much like what bowlers call a handicap. A handicap is what is given to a player who is playing against an opponent who has a much higher average then he does. Like a bowler who has a 200 average vs a player who has a 130 average. The lower average player is given a handicap of points to compensate for the average difference. Its the difference between an elite player vs a novice one. Most elite players are totally confident in their skill set and pretty much shrug off ever using buffs in their play style. This includes fights where they are pitted against multiple opponents. That's why they are elite players they play in ways no other players can and will. They actually challenge themselves and its not about winning or losing with them. Its the competition and confidence in their skill. It comes down to how good a player wants to be in this game. Because honestly a real veteran player would never say that an "easy mode" player is truly an elite player. That's just dumb. Because without the buffs these try hards are not very good at all. They became so reliant on a buff play style that they forget about learning skills and tactics. Just my opin.
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    Post by Leet Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:41 pm

    lorenzo110 wrote:Play the way you feel. The choice is totally yours. But with that being said I will say crown of dusk, power within, crystal catalyst, spamming dark beads, or wrath really does not require much skill what so ever to utilize.
    One of the most ignorant statements i've ever read. There's a wrong way to use these things, and a right way. Strap any of these things on and come duel me. We'll see how "easy" these things are.


    Buffs are not everything. Buffs require stat investment. Whether it be CMW, DMB, or SLB. Depending on your SL, you have to make sacrifices. I run into people every single day who use buffs, and still get waxed across the floor. Once again, that is something you have to know how to use. You're on a time limit with buffs. If your opponent dances around you until your buff runs out, what're you gonna do? Nothing. Die. Your stat investment was worthless. Against an experienced player, buffs ain't no thang. Once again, you have to know how to use it.


    I wouldn't call a buff a crutch. I'd call Dark Bead, Black Flame, WOG, and things of that nature a crutch. Something you pull out when you start getting beat, to give yourself more of an edge so you don't lose.


    There's a right way to use these things, and a wrong way. You don't simply go out onto the battlefield, hit r1, and devastate everything in your path. It doesn't work that way. You should set up some duels with people on the forum. You'd change your thinking real quick.

    Glass cannons are not easy mode. Think about the term "Glass Cannon." Glass Cannons are fragile. They're not perfect builds. There is a flaw in every build. Easy mode imo, consists more of people who do nothing but use the DWGR and roll backstab every person they run into. But DB, WOG, Power withing etc etc, does not make you a god. Period.
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    Post by Moalover Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:53 pm

    lorenzo110 wrote:Play the way you feel. The choice is totally yours. But with that being said I will say crown of dusk, power within, crystal catalyst, spamming dark beads, or wrath really does not require much skill what so ever to utilize. I am pretty sure most honest veteran players will freely admit this about these "easy mode" or "glass canon" fighting styles. Anyone can do it and fight this way and see a substantial rise in win average. If winning is your sole purpose in playing then those tactics are perfect for you. Skill is different then buff fighting. Remember they are called buffs for a reason. They are to give you a fighting advantage over all your opponents, with maybe the exception of those fighting you the same way. Buffs give a substantial boost in both magic and weapon damage.

    Unfortunately most people don't believe this about buffs, mainly because their play style incorporates these items and spells to boost damage. Sure these items are legitimately in the game for all to use but one should ask themselves this about buffs: In a 1v1 fight who is fighting fair a guy using regular armor and an un buffed katana or a person using crown of dusk, crystal catalyst, one of the dragon magic buff rings or princess ring, OHKO bead spamming, as well as wrath, with a hornet ring, and using a sunlight blade or darkmoon or crystal magic buffed rapier. If you really have to think about who is the player who is actually challenging themselves more in the game by utilizing a true skill play style then you may want to spend more time on this wiki learning the difference between non buffing and buffing items and their weapon or magic damage outputs.

    I personally have more respect for players who make it a personal challenge on themselves by fighting in a no buff fighting style. Those guys are bad a$$. I had a really ignorant player who said he was a veteran player state he fights in a no buff fighting style, yet he uses hornet ring and claims it is not a buff. Really people? Hornet ring is not a buff? Even though it didn't help him in the fight I was really surprised by his claim that he was a clean fighter who doesn't resort to buffs. I personally see more Japanese fighters who do not utilize buffs. These great players tend to play simply for the fun of the game and the challenge to improve their skill. Most others I see tend to play with the "must win at all cost" mentality.

    So with that being said again it comes down to your own personal choice. Do you want to improve skill wise? Or is your main purpose in this game to win every single fight. Buffs are a crutch. They are much like what bowlers call a handicap. A handicap is what is given to a player who is playing against an opponent who has a much higher average then he does. Like a bowler who has a 200 average vs a player who has a 130 average. The lower average player is given a handicap of points to compensate for the average difference. Its the difference between an elite player vs a novice one. Most elite players are totally confident in their skill set and pretty much shrug off ever using buffs in their play style. This includes fights where they are pitted against multiple opponents. That's why they are elite players they play in ways no other players can and will. They actually challenge themselves and its not about winning or losing with them. Its the competition and confidence in their skill. It comes down to how good a player wants to be in this game. Because honestly a real veteran player would never say that an "easy mode" player is truly an elite player. That's just dumb. Because without the buffs these try hards are not very good at all. They became so reliant on a buff play style that they forget about learning skills and tactics. Just my opin.
    Alright it's very very interesting to read you opinions, and i respect them, yet i disagree with you saying that playing with buffs prevents you from being an elite players, as in any rpg, you can't get one thing without sacrificing others, take my build for example, i sacrificed a lot of stat points to getting 30 faith and using the darkmoon blade buff, wich pretty much prevents me from using any other weapon with a nice dmg output (and if i use elemental bye bye darmoon buff), and the actual buff give a slight edge in battle but only for 1min, as i said before, those are tradeoffs, a player that plays unbuffed probably has a wider variety of weapons to use, does not depends on a 60 secs buff (so can turtle if he/she wants). This spells and buffs is what gives the game the variety that makes it so great, because if the game were full of people pvping with the same dex/str/quality builds and no spells/miracles/pyromancy/buffs it would be really more boring, wich as i mentioned before are does not make you overpowered, it gives you an advantage in exchange of another disadvantage. Again just a friendly exchange of opinions thumbs up
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    Post by Serious_Much Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:29 pm

    On the buffs front, when I used to go to fight club and use a buffing build, most likely result is I win the first one when I had my buff, then get my *** kicked in the next one.

    There's two ways you can look at that- i was not skilled enough to win without using the buff (and other magic I had), or I simply had lost the tools of my build like magic and buffs which was made my build competitive.

    Whether you believe the latter or the prior is your choice, but that's essentially what you guys are debating over
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    Post by Leet Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:21 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:On the buffs front, when I used to go to fight club and use a buffing build, most likely result is I win the first one when I had my buff, then get my *** kicked in the next one.

    There's two ways you can look at that- i was not skilled enough to win without using the buff (and other magic I had), or I simply had lost the tools of my build like magic and buffs which was made my build competitive.

    Whether you believe the latter or the prior is your choice, but that's essentially what you guys are debating over
    Which is why i said:


    TooLeet wrote:You're on a time limit with buffs. If your opponent dances around you until your buff runs out, what're you gonna do? Nothing. Die. Your stat investment was worthless.
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    Post by lorenzo110 Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:43 pm

    We will agree to disagree TooLeet. I believe you are wrong. Because of my experience in the game and how I had proven it to people who had your mind set. OHKO builds are called easy mode and try hard methods of fighting for a reason. Everyone here who is a "legit" veteran player knows this. The game is designed to be the most difficult to play for any gamer. Yet to make things easier on the player there are items and buffs designed into the game to allow it to be easy. Where is the real challenge of a OHKO play style? Really tell me I don't see it. I believe your must win at all cost mindset has kind of blinded you to the fact of why these items are called buffs. They are to provide the player with a greater advantage during pvp game play. Not harder...but easy. Hence "easy mode". If you choose to fight in easy mode then that is your choice as a player but you really are not challenging yourself as a true veteran player. Remember the game is supposed to be difficult, not easy. Again OHKO play style is called "easy mode" for a reason. Its easy to use and anyone can utilize this style of game play effectively. What is ignorant is a person saying buffs do not provide an advantage at all and it takes skill to use them. You are equating skill with item usage. They are both totally different. You can back stab without a hornet ring and darkmoon blade. The difference is one play style is designed to provide a OHKO amount of damage where the other is not, unless your fighting someone with almost no HP. I am sure even you recognize the difference right? Buff-spells, items, and rings designed to enhance weapon or spell damage output. Skill- dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks. I hope you learn the difference between both because despite what you may think they really are two different things. What is ignorant is not knowing this. Just my opin.

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