Linking Internal and External Lore: Norse, Arthurian, and Etymology in Dark Souls

Upon closer inspection that's a unique sword I believe. Notice that the sword in ublug's pic has thorns and not the flares of the black knight greatsword. I was torn on the shield as it could be the crest or the swirling pattern of the artorias shield. I think the lighting and fog make it touch to definitely state which one it is. I agree that I think the facebook pic was modified as the thorns are missing, the blade is shaped a little differently and looks darker. The shield on facebook is also a little easier to see things with and it appears (to me at least) to be a ridged pattern like a lot of things associated with Artorias (shield, parts of the sword, crest and gate) and not a painted crest. The original art I won't make an argument for or against the shield in any way as it could be either just as easily.

If Gwyndolin is the painter of the pictures, then the exaggerated nature of Gwynevere in the painting and illusion could be a mixture of envy and reverance. Being raised a female without distinct female features would cause someone to be self conscious. Repressed or hidden strong feelings normally manifest themselves through art. What is interesting about the painting/illusion pose is the traditional tone of it. It is a pose used as a lover, but I have seen it in paintings to depict courtesans as well. There could be a subtle accusation here, or it could be a subtle affection. Not sure about the connection to Mordred, but I will look.

Also, looking at the architecture the one image that seemed like a sun in a box, looked an awful lot like a kiln or oven to me. I will try and work out the symbology of the three images.

And now for Tolkien...

Anor Londo. In Sindarin, Anor means Sun, as in Minas Anor the White City of Gondor, The City of Kings. It's twin brother was Minas Ithil, which meant Tower of the Moon. It fell to dark and Became the city of the Nazgul (wraiths). Sound familiar?

By the way, great stuff being found! Gaining an immense appreciation for the influences used to make this game and how they crafted all this narrative together.

Looking at the three symbols of bread, kiln (oven), and child:

Symbolism of Oven/Kiln: pretty overwhelmingly the female womb and it's ability to give birth.

Symbolism of Bread: depending on the tradition but generally it means life. Either the cycle of life and death, resurrection in Egyptian culture, and eternal life in Judeo Christian

If that third symbol is a child (or woman at a cradle) then we have renewal.

The three together point to reverance of fertility, renewal. A bun in the oven. Possibly a metaphor for the life giving bounty provided by the fire. Despite Gwyn being the prominent deity, the symbology of this universe is very pro-mother. Throw in the Madonna statues scattered about and we have a pretty complete picture. The strength of these great men is made possible by the warm nurturing of the mother.

Emergence wrote:Looking at the three symbols of bread, kiln (oven), and child:

Symbolism of Oven/Kiln: pretty overwhelmingly the female womb and it's ability to give birth.

Symbolism of Bread: depending on the tradition but generally it means life. Either the cycle of life and death, resurrection in Egyptian culture, and eternal life in Judeo Christian

If that third symbol is a child (or woman at a cradle) then we have renewal.

The three together point to reverance of fertility, renewal. A bun in the oven. Possibly a metaphor for the life giving bounty provided by the fire. Despite Gwyn being the prominent deity, the symbology of this universe is very pro-mother. Throw in the Madonna statues scattered about and we have a pretty complete picture. The strength of these great men is made possible by the warm nurturing of the mother.

Emergence great find there. I think the oven maybe representing the Kiln of the First Flame. Throw in Acidic's theory that Velka was the first Firekeeper, mother of Gwyn's sons and wife of Gwyn. Super connection there. Also the bread and the wheat represents Gwynevere, you can check her miracles descriptions and it says that she was also a Goddess of fertility.

I was also thinking fertility and birth/rebirth themes. Great Tolkien stuff too. Very familiar. Speaking of female reverence look at the plates/wall near the statue in the parish. Looks like man lion and dragon paying tribute to the mother

I agree Wyrmhero, but switched. Deities are always personification of revered qualities. So rather than the bread represent Gwynevere, Gwynevere becomes emblematic of life and fertility.

What the symbols to me mean is the first flame is viewed as the proverbial mother. Warmth, life giving, renewing. The first to find the flame attributed a very mother like quality to it (despite it being a non gendered physical reaction). When a society reveres an object as a specific gender, they will consequently revere and conjoin anything that encapsulates those qualities. So in this instance, upon the flame is projected motherlike qualities, therefore women are revered as flamelike and are elevated. Anthropologically, this makes sense in the assignment of gender roles. In a particular society, if the warring personifications are male, then the males fight the wars. In Lordran, females are closely linked with the fires, and as such their roles are defined as firekeepers, and maidens.

I've been ousted form the TV so I can't look at those plates now Skarekrow lol. Couple of quick bites I found, both the names Gough and Flann mean red-haired and they are both of the same regional origin. Not sure if that is coincidence or intentional. Gwynevere was stated as leaving Anor Londo as wife to the Flame God Flann. Gough's whereabouts and his part in the play are more quiet. Seemed interesting that his ring is the only one tidily placed in a chest. There is nothing external lore wise to link Lancelot to Gough or Flann, so can't quite say Gwynevere left with Flann in an adulterous betrayal of Artorias or not.

Something neat I came across was stuff related to Thor. The modern retelling of Thor by Marvel, has him cast out of Asgard, and stripped of his deity status due to overzealous pomp and pride. He was quick to go to war. Going back to the Norse mythos, he wielded the power of lightning. Going into the etymology of his hammer, Mjolnir means crusher, an amalgam of "melt" and "lightning". In the modern lore, he is wiped of his memory and is left with only his hammer, but is sent to earth as a disabled doctor.

Sounds a lot like our God if War. There's a thread about Andre being him that is kinda convincing. I just saw something about the statue that I've never seen mentioned. Gonna bring it up in that thread and see what they think. Also, starting to look into other areas but this character is a little limited in areas

So.....no major finds like the paintings today but a few thoughts to expand on.

I spent a lot of time looking at the broken statue near the Sunlight Altar to see what connections I could make. I'm guessing some of this will already be on Acidic's thread but here are observations solely from my research and thoughts......

I wanted to see for myself if I thought this was the God of War and I believe.....yes it is. The Sunlight covenant connection is obvious but just as importantly, the armor is near identical to Gwyn's, so the statue was either within the ranks very closely to Gwyn, related to Gwyn or both. The only differences I can tell in the armor are the shoulders and head. The robes appear identical (and similar to wallpaper patterns in the bedrooms of Anor Londo if you can beleive it) except Gwyn has either decorations/pauldrons from what I could tell. The statue is missing the crown as well. This is replaced with a simple helmet with either cloth or flexible mail sides that go over the ears (it doesn't look like chain mail to me). Both differences to me appear to say that this person is tied to Gwyn but not "King." The similarities could mean "heir" to the throne, so probable first born.

The winged spear is of similar design to Ornstein's winged spear, but definitely not the dragonslayer as this one has a broader, flatter blade. Also, while both feature a dual set of wings with the second set being identical and doubling as handles (likely to retract the weapon from a victim) Ornstein's first set of wings is more of a bulbous area to prevent the blade from going too deeply. The statue's first set of wings looks just like the guard on Gywn's sword. The blade kinda looks like his too but mounted on a spear. I figure, as it's an area I am fairly good with I will add weapon lore to the mix if appropriate and everyone is interested. The spear is fairly consistent with many great heroes/gods but often is not a primary weapon. For battle purposes the winged spear would be used for a variety of things. As no one ever seems mounted I will just detail infantry use. The point of the wings is to prevent losing your spear from running someone through a little "too much" preventing the weapon from coming back out. For foot battles this allows for a kill, immediate retrieval, rinse and repeat. This would be used en masse typically as thrusting is the main method of attack. The use of a blade was intended not for slashing on most winged spears but to cause a wider wound on an unprotected warrior. After the first wave of attacks the spear might get abandoned for a different weapon, depending on the enemies' next wave and equipment and of course, infantry budget. The God of War's spear has an exaggerated blade which implies he would have been slashing as well. This is significant as Gods are often portrayed as the heart and soul of battle, not killing just one enemy at a time. Think Sauron's mace blasts in the movies. He's not hitting just one person at a time with this thing. The spear rather than a sword or similar weapon still means this would likely be used right out of the gate with the option to abandon later as traditionally you would get your rear handed to you in a skilled duel using this kind of spear. Unlike eastern spears, the intent was not to use like a staff weapon and attempts to do so would be easily blocked, destroying the spear. Also, against a heavily armored foe the force of the slash might break the shaft as opposed to a halberd which would be reinforced for this motion. So......a spear in the statue likely implies that this was an inspirational one, with him ready to lead into battle, not a duel or personal exploit. Also.....this means the only thing missing from the statue is what the "primary" weapon is. I did not notice a scabbard for a sword which could also be telling. I tried to piece the statue together mentally for the left hand and I believe the pose was meant to show him resting his left hand on something, not resting at his side, holding something up, etc.

Until I read other threads I just assumed Solaire was the God of War as he sure likes the sun a great deal and seems a little lost. But after reading the thread about Andrei I wanted to take a closer look at this suspect. I noted the scars and possible Artorias connection before so there's that for sure. As the God of War, it could be said the Knights in Anor Londo were his domain and he is now looking over the other outcast warrior from the city of the sun, Artorias. The crest and feigned ignorance of the garden seem suspicious. I cycled through his dialogues last night as I hadn't really spoken to him this playthrough and I never noticed how helpful he is. I believe he's the only person who explicitly tells you a single thing. He tells you all about weapon upgrades and repairs with no agenda whatsoever. How did I not catch that before? He's literally the only helpful thing in the game. Kinda like he's watching over me....ha ha ha.... Another dialogue point I found interesting was his speech on how a good weapon is the only thing that won't betray you. Kind of an odd thing to say unless he's experienced betrayal and his default thing to trust is his arms. His strength is outrageous too. On NG I decided to kill all the NPCs to see what they'd give me to make sure I didn't miss anything. I did this endgame and and found little resistance at this point as I had upgraded my scythe to +15, had a good weight setup and around level 100 I think. Rickert was disappointing by the way....I was expecting a fourth hammer. Vamos and the Giant were easy. Depite being in an area with tougher enemies and later in the game.....Vamos never even got to show me what his attacks looked like. My first hit practically killed him and the second did. Andrei scared me. With nothing but his hands. And man......is he BIG. Recalling all the above I made sure to binocular the statue face first and returned to Andrei. I won't say anything is definitive but they look pretty similar.

Rolling this all back together, if Andrei is the God of War then he ties in perfectly with the modern telling of Thor being exiled and stripped of his power but unable to completely let go of his true self.

So part of the reason I didn't do much exploring last night was because I went back to the Rembrandts hoping to find a signature. No dice.....I was looking for an "A" as Rembrandt initially signed with an "R." The only suspicious marking I saw was a black symbol on the painted world painting that looks like the eye of Ra on one of the towers.

A few more painting notes.....WyrmHero pointed out the painting that could be a bridge in the kiln or painted world. I believe those are good theories. It kind of looks like the kiln after the explosion melted some things. I also thought it could be New Londo being flooded, as the melted ore look also resembled waves crashing in. Please add to this if you go take a look. That painting is intriguing. Also of interest is the stone henge looking one. I must have been more fascinated with the portraits because it is definitely pillars. There is a tower in the background in shadows and a shadowy figure in the middle of the pillars. The shadowy figure either looks like a tree or Nito. There looks like the wall to Anor Londo slightly below the pillars. The entire scene is from the top of a cliff area. One of the paintings of Anor Londo and the Painting of Sen's caught my eye again. The Anor Londo picture appears distorted/decaying, as in the city is not the painting. This again reminded me of war/chaos. The Sen's painting is EXTREMELY interesting upon closer look. The fortress looks more dilapidated than when we come across it in game suggesting it is older. However, and this is the interesting part, I at first glance thought "this can't be Sen's fortress because it's on a cliff face but the doors and facade are right." It finally hit.....there are no trees. Sen's is on a cliff of course but I always was tricked into thinking different due to the height of the trees. The painting is then either before the trees grew (which would be weird due to the state of disrepair) or after we get there and the trees have been removed.

Also in the room and of no particular known connection (yet) are a still life of flowers and a landscape of a piece of rocky land jutting into the sea.

Huh, Andrei as the GoW? Interesting. He does have a penchant for a hammer, and refusal to work on anything but normal or faith based weaponry. Guess it's all speculation though, wish I could find something externally to confirm it.

I really need to go look at those paintings!

Anyone tried hitting up the etymology for the pendant yet?

I'm pretty sure it comes from the latin roots of the words "false" and "hope"

on a more serious note I am enjoying the ideas being thrown around by people as to the God of War and Sen. Interesting that more people believe the andre theory than Cook's Sen idea.

I forget who posted it but the Sen link is to a Japanese castle set up to repel invaders. Pretty convincing theory on the fortress despite mechanical and style differences. I would have to read Acidic's theories on Sen as I don't recall much info (if any) in game on Sen. Apology to Acidic as I know how hard he works on his thread but I rarely visit as, with this game at least, I follow rule #1 for my day job......never deliberately start your search with someone else's opinion, only add them once you have your own based off of observations and evidence in hand. I know it's a long rule.....the short and sweet is "remain objective."

Good spot btw on the Stone Giants being lefty! Too bad the boxart seems all fubar at this point, that we won't be able to fully surmise it's intent.

emergence with the box art i reckon it's also worth mentioning that it's only in the Namco Release where it depicts what we presume is artorias..

On the japanese version thats on our wiki frontpage it doesn't show this, not sure if such a hint would be given to some players but not others :|

Nooooooooooo!!!!!! Serious don't start. Artorias just HAS to be "sinister." How's that for etymology Emergence?

Good point though. Particularly with revisions coming to the same pic to make it more Artoriasy. I swear on my box that I couldn't determine if the guy was facing toward or away. Gonna have to go look again. Maybe check out the book it came with too for clues. Jinkies!

On a whim I decided to look up facts on Aokigahara, Japan's "suicide forest" to compare to darkroot. Visually they appear to have similar trees and the real forest is on rock, as is darkroot. That's the best links but the real forest is tied to demon lore and is described as "eerily quiet"

***Info added on 3/27/2012***

I just read the original post and wanted to clarify that the ties to demon lore and it's "eerily quiet" description are similar to Darkroot. One of the reasons Aokigahara is so darn quiet is a lack of wildlife. I'll get to the wildlife of Darkroot later but for now let's say I have not noticed forest critters in Darkroot. This is especially odd with the inclusion of small, non-violent rats in the Depths and bugs in the Asylum and catacombs. From has no problem adding animals for atmosphere but didn't in Darkroot, which I have described as the only place with real "life" in the game.

Geographically, Aokigahara is famous for caves as well (ice and wind namely). The basin has a few notable caves (Dusk, cave leading to valley of drakes) as well. Aokigahara is at the foot of Mt. Fuji. Darkroot is below Sen's fortress meaning it is at the base of the mountain that Anor Londo is on.

The Crest of Artorias indicates it is unwise (suicide perhaps?) to enter the forest if not initiated. Similarly, the high suicide rate has prompted the government to add signs in Japanese and English asking visitors to "reconsider" their actions. Straying into some areas is also discouraged.

DISCLAIMER....I am providing the Wikipedia link below. Due to the fascination of this forest, there are a lot of pictures available for anyone interested in doing their own research into the forest. Let me reference the points above again and say that the lack of wildlife has led to other photography subjects, many of which are graphic. Search at your own risk
Aokigahara

On to the wildlife:
I cannot find information on Japanese demons resembling the crystal or stone golems, flying frogs, tree lizards or mushrooms. If anyone can help please do. The golems probably are renegades from Seath and the mushrooms could be an extension of the forest or a funny take on one of the descriptions below (you'll see what I mean). The frogs are probably somewhere if I keep looking (as anime has frog like villains) and the stone golems I believe are guardians placed there and not natural to the forest. The tree lizards seem to be similar to a demon hand that hides in trees perhaps but there's not enough similarities for my tastes.

From least to most interesting to me:
1. Yamata no Orochi
Everyone knows that Japan has dragons so it's no surprise that this 8 headed guy has similar facial features to our Hydras and is associated with water. If someone can verify head count on Dark Souls Hydras please do but eight seems about right.

2. Jubokko
Let me ask if this sounds familiar....a tree that is fed a large quantity of blood via the roots, likely in an area of battle or violence. Not yet? Ok, these trees, when approached by a human come to life and attempt to suck the blood from their victims via tubes. These tubes used to look like branches but change. So, the ents are not Tolkien's creatures but Japanese demon trees that elongate their branches to strike, grab and steal your blood. Take that Tolkien!

Best for Last
3. Bakeneko
What's a Bakeneko? A cat demon. Parallels to our story....a Bakeneko is a normal cat that became a demon from one of a few methods. Notably for our purposes, growing old (more than ten years) or growing big (8lbs.). All four forest kitties are definitely bigger than 8lbs and Alvina is supposed to be ancient. I'll focus on Alvina as she's the most significant one. It seems there's a variety of paranormal stuff attached to cat demons including talking and "menacing" humans in their home. If Darkroot is home to these cats, they sure as heck know how to menace. If you check the link there's stories of Bakeneko guiding humans via messages/actions/etc. Alvina is your guide to the Covenant andi directs your actions as such. I'll need to double check this but Alvina's tail is short. One of the methods of making sure your cat didn't turn into a demon was to cut the tail (as a third way to become Bakeneko is to grow the tail). I will have to have someone verify or get extremely luck in an invasion to look at the rolly cats but it would be interesting to see what their tails looks like. If they are either long or forked, these are hallmarks of a Bakeneko. If they are it might also explain why Alvina talks and (to some) is considered not so evil. Her tail was cut, preventing her from being a demon. Instead she's just a talking cat. I still maintain that the grins on the cats are a nod to the Cheshire Cat as I have not found Japanese illustrations which depict this grin. Alternatively, a demon called a Sekien Kash is also a cat demon. This is differentiated from Bakeneko, among origin perhaps, in that they steal corpses from funerals. Alvina rewards you for making corpses in what could be a graveyard.

Regarding the creatures I cannot find, all but the mushrooms are outside of the Artorias/Alvina area meaning they may not be "demons" or tied to this and therefore not inherently attached to the above lore.

**Edited again**
The Rolly cat trio (good band name) does have pretty long tails. Thank you Youtube

A little birdie told me to expect something from a skarekrow...

More Japanese lore while I'm at it. The legend of Masamune and Muramasa ties in pretty well with the Artorias swords. I won't give a full version but the legend goes along the lines that Muramasa challenged Masamune to see who could make a better sword. When they finished the swords were said to be near to identical. To determine whose sword was better they placed the blades in a stream. Depending on version of the legend, muramasa's (who always goes first) cut either a leaf or pretty much everything. Masamune's sword cuts nothing. Sometimes his blade is depicted as cutting then restoring a leaf. The moral is that Masamune is considered the winner as his does not cut needlessly. Muramasa's weapon is depicted as having an evil spirit. Going back to our lore, Sif appears to wield a divine sword and only attacks in defense. The cursed blade is pictured as dark and cuts anything in its way

I study Mythology and Theology, and I've not seen this thread until now?!?! Guys, why the hell wasn't I informed! I'll be back after I finish reading through this.

Still in the midst of reading, but I would like to bring up an idea with Arthur. Arthur's relationship with Mordred. Upon hearing of the child born during a certain time taking up arms and defeating him, he had all children born during a certain time put on ships and sent out to see where they were sunk to be drowned. I'll get back to this idea, but the first born, Priscilla, the name Guinevere, it just all is making the gears turn so I'll get back to that as I look back on things a bit more and finish reading everything you two have been talking about.

New Londo, sinking, drowning, sif, artorias, babies, so many relations and symbols!

EDIT: By the way, some versions of Mordred depict him as the bastard child of Arthur and Morgan la Fay, a sorceress, or maybe a witch? I'm going to go nuts in this thread haha.

EDIT 2: In regards to paintings, I believe the Stonehenge one you were talking about. To me, that looks like Kiln of the First Flame after the great fire turned most of it to ash. Here's my question, how could a painter have ever seen such a place? As well something always bugged me about one painted of an eastern looking man. First of all, people of the great swamp might have a small glitch in the character menu. The mail eastern face looks like Laurientus, of the great swamp. While the Swamp Male Face looks like the man in eastern garb in the painting in Anor Londo. Not exactly external lore but something that always puzzled me.

EDIT 3: So I've seen all of my points have already been adressed.
I know very little of japanese mythology as I'm not a fan of it, but what if a possible relation to the Muramasa and the Murakumo? The Murakumo is a weapon wielded by Shiva, a man who might not be of great intentions and uses his weapon to slay any invader in the forest he is to spot. Notice, in an area that has streams and water, etc. With that, Shiva would be invading as a Dark Spirit, as forest hunters while blue actually are counted as Dark Spirits, Shiva the wielder of a large sword used for cutting down any in its way being a "Dark Spirit." Some pretty weak links, but just thought I should mention my forest hunter brother FROM another mother software.

Oh my god.......I just found the greatest link between internal and external lore by accident. I was just eating an E.L. Fudge cookie and noticed it said "From the Hollow Tree." Obviously, the Great Hollow is based on the tree that elves make cookies in. I always wondered why I turned to stone after eating about a dozen cookies and had to run out and buy a Nabisco Purging Stone.

In other news, perhaps it's time I take a break.

Rather than make yet another post I edited my post about Aokigahara forest (post 77) to include some more info I found on that and other Japanese lore.

This is some cool stuff skarekrow. Not familiar at all with Japanese myth somthis has been a great read.

I took a course in Japanese history as well as a healthy interest most of my teen and adult life. Had a professor/judo instructor in college too who was from Japan so the interest has been there. Interesting side note for etymology purposes (looking at you Emergence) is the term Kamikaze. This isn't a huge secret but it translates to "divine wind" and refers to the twice in a row miracle of a tsunami preventing an invasion from one of the Khan's I believe. I was reminded of this because my professor was trained in WWII to be the army equivalent of a kamikaze (still with planes). He made sure he clarified which branch of the military he was enlisted in and that he was thankful of the the Atomic Bomb as it ended the war prior to him actually being on a mission.

I'm sad to say that of all the regions of the world we seemed to have hit Asia pretty late in the game