Exploring a few things. Posting some theorizing

And the possibility of Andre being the god of war too. The only 'human' in the game that looks different and is taller than the player. But as he lost his godly powers he can only fight you with his fists. He also has high knowledge of weapons and armor, and most of the embers he takes are used to make weapons of legend and divine. Solaire is just too obvious...

Yup. Those are the ones. I think his statue looks bigger because it's elevated though. I think they're roughly the same size but since they don't stand side by side I could be wrong in that regard. You're also right in that Gwyn is the only God who seems to go hollow. He at least loses most of his power via time or giving it away. The Four Kings definitely altered their state and my belief with them is that they were human size or close, since New Londo was a human city and their new forms reflect more of a ghost or true wraith form (Darkwraiths aren't classic style wraiths) and their size change is accounted for in that way.

Solaire could be the first born and that would add weight to the "lose divinity, lose some size" argument. I'm in the Andrei as Gywn's firstborn camp though and he's actually a good deal bigger than us I believe. Not so big as Gwyn mind you but at least Gwyndolin size (although not full height when he decides to tip toe....uh.....tip tentacle).

Honestly though, since From decided to let us make the story up for them (which is brilliant) I can't refute what you're saying. It's just as possible as my scenario.

skarekrow13 wrote:
Honestly though, since From decided to let us make the story up for them (which is brilliant) I can't refute what you're saying. It's just as possible as my scenario.

Right? The more I 'lore hunt' the more blown away I am at how genius it is. This is my first time hearing the Andre argument, which, I agree, could make just as much sense as Solaire. I think in either case you could still argue the possibility of a shrinking. Granted he is bigger than you, but I would argue that he's no larger than a big person.

I would say he's pretty close to what I would expect. I know I was shocked in my NG "kill them all" run when he stood up. But I can't argue against shrinking either since he's smaller than Gwyn and we don't see anything that could be him with the possible exception of the Sunlight Altar statue which I think would be a little taller than Andrei. The more I muse over that statue though the more I think it might be young Gwyn rather than the God of War. Supposedly his form was ripped from the world with no remaining likeness. It seems pretty suspcious that someone who wanted to remove any evidence of the God of War would be as idiotic as to leave the person's face laying about like that. The armor looks like Gwyn's and the spear seems similar to his sword. I could go either way on who the statue is supposed to be. Anyway, tangents aside, I was thinking of beating the game again just for the heck of it (gotta do Bed of Chaos and Nito and then no problemo) so maybe I'll stand around and try to estimate Gywn's height a little better and compare it to the statue.

I just beat the game a few minutes back. And if you're referring to the Gwyn statue in the Darkmoon Tomb, then I can confirm that the Gwyn you fight in the Kiln is shorter than the aforementioned representation.

I mean the Gwyn Statue in the O&S room. Forgot about the Darkmoon tomb

Isn't Solaire taller than our characters? I'd have to check. Maybe he's the same size. I believe he's the son since his name pretty much screams it. And the statues of the gods may not ever be scaled to size since the only ones we know that are scaled to size are the statues of demi-gods. Which would make sense. The statues of the gods SHOULD be bigger than the statues of the demi-gods.

wasnt there an interview where they said andre was supposed to be from gwyns family and he was supposed to be more important? (i saw it on epicnamebro's video!)

i dont like the theory that solaire is the firstborn because he talks that he is an adherent of gwyn.. and ends up dying when he finds that parasite so easily. and its too obvious
we cant really tell but i think the character that stands more as firstborn in the game is andre. like he lost his deity status and ended up being a blacksmith onlyy. but solaire is a cool guy also

but uhm.. that body with the ring might be solaire and he was casted away because he became undead and left his ring there with his body. theres too a body with darkmoon seance ring but i dont know who the body is :roll:

Ya know I didn't even consider that. Where is it that you find the ring of the sun's first born again? I can't remember.

The Ring of the Sun's Firstborn is by the Darkmoon Tomb bonfire. ENB said that Andre was originally meant to open a secret passage to the Kiln of the First Flame.

Quarik beat me to it, that ^

Quarik wrote:The Ring of the Sun's Firstborn is by the Darkmoon Tomb bonfire. ENB said that Andre was originally meant to open a secret passage to the Kiln of the First Flame.

That makes perfect sense too; to assume that the firstborn died attempting to gain entry into the DM tomb, became undead, and thus became a human-ish inhabitant of Lordran.

yess and in the picture he showed the passage was behind that statue in firelink
shrine! but i do remember him saying that andre was supposed to be from
gwyns family.. it was on the art book video!

Yeah. That was the plan. I think they then added in Solaire to be the Character Helper replacement, and also be Gwyn's firstborn. I mean, I know it's obvious, but, come on, they give you clues so you can follow those clues. Just cause we've found what we're looking for fairly easily, doesn't mean it ain't true. I think this is a huge part of the lore, and the developers probably wanted at least some of the "non-lore" players to find something out about the lore without having to try too hard. Some people don't care and don't like digging, but still would feel good if they found something out. I.E. if they found the ring of the firstborn, then think "hmmm. Who's the first born? Must be Solaire" without having to dig. *shrug* that's my theory. Sol=sun. -aeir= heir to the throne. Thus... Heir to the Sun.

yeaa that makes sense

Biggest evidence against Solaire is his use of lightning spear miracles. It goes against the god of wars "believes only in the strength of his arm" philosiphy.

Hmm. But Gwyn uses all those Lightning Spear Miracles. And you probably need a strong arm to throw those mighty lightning spears hahahaha! The biggest piece going against Andrei is that somewhere it says that the firstborn is still looking after his warriors. Andrei has no warriors, and he doesn't really look out for you in-game. It goes both ways, and I doubt they'll ever give us an answer.

andrei is still essential to many warriors
so he keeps an eye on them!

Solaire doesnt necessarily look out for his warriors. He looks out for anyone who summons him. Andre on the other hand will reinforce and ascend the weapons of anyone, including any sunbros who come to him for help. When you think about it a blacksmith is the biggest helper in the game.

But he doesn't reallllllllly look after you. He just sits where he is and never leaves. He couldn't care less if came for him or not. Only thing he seems to care about is embers. Granted, I haven't sat around listening to his dialogue, and I know he says "Neither of us want to see you go hollow." but that, to me, just means he's not evil.

The very line you say shows he cares for you. He doesnt want you for the ember. he's always surprised when you bring them to him, and asks very nicely for them. He tells you about trusting your weapons since they'll never let you done, to show them respect. Al fitting in very nicely with the GoWs philosophy.

That line he says sounds more like a courtesy to me. Maybe I've just heard it waaaaay too many times, but it just seems like he's saying it because he doesn't want to see anyone go hollow. Though, when you compare to how "nice" other NPC's are in the game, Andrei is up there with Solaire. Those are preeetty much the only NPC's in the game that don't end with something depressing, evil, or selfish. Oh, I guess the guy from The Great Swamp (Whatever his name is. I guess he might not be from the Great Swamp. Actually, I believe he's lying) is pretty nice.

DoughGuy wrote:Biggest evidence against Solaire is his use of lightning spear miracles. It goes against the god of wars "believes only in the strength of his arm" philosiphy.

Where does it say that? I never saw that.

Greqat lightning spear
"Miracle passed down to those bound by the Warrior of Sunlight covenant. Hurl giant lightning spear.
The weapon of the God of War, who inherited the sunlight of Lord Gwyn, but had respect only for arms, and nothing else."

Uhh. Did I miss something? Solaire hurls lightning spears. The weapon of the God of War. How does this go against Solaire, then?