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    Limiting Build and Player Creativity?

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    Post by martyrsbrigade99 Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:42 am

    Here is the first part of my "Battle of the Build" series. In it, there is a discussion on standards that hinder build and player creativity, enjoy:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAbZozLQaGU
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    Post by Extertionist Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:13 am

    Very nice video and I largely agree with you. Personally, I consider people who have honor as people who bow or something like that before a match, after that, as long as you're not using extremely cheap tactics I'm fine (and by extremely cheap I mean hornets chain BS or Dragon glitching).
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    Post by mugenis4real Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:21 am

    Yesssss I love maximizing the potential of my builds as well big grin
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    Post by robsthedon Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:56 am

    Totally agree, if it's in the game it's fair and you have to learn to combat it.
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    Post by roanispe Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:02 am

    You make some valid points, but I think they could have been better rationalised. For stream of consciousness it was well done; much better than I could've. My personal view on the matter is that playing the game to its fullest extent allows for a real dominant strategy to be developed and, a legitimate counter to appear then a true counter-counter, ad infinitum. You might think of 'real', 'legitimate', and 'true' as unnecessary modifiers, but the importance of being so permitting of even what you currently think is unfair allows unorthodox responses to whatever is the current metagame is. What you think as unfair is often the counter to what you're doing. The ball is now in your court, and it is up to you decide how to respond to whatever is making you cry 'cheap!'

    However, I also believe that the 'Dueling' subgame of Dark Souls to be enjoyable needs to be based strongly on the principles of mutual respect for both players. The fact that both participants agree to follow a certain, equal set of rules allows it to be more fun, in my own opinion. This is what separates the 'Dueling' from the 'Invading' that you'll see so often in the Forest. There does exist this "Honor System" that is based on what the current player-base can handle. It might be worth respecting it to maximising everyone's enjoyment. It might also be worth noting that people can come up with the most novel of ideas in the most limiting of circumstances.
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    Post by martyrsbrigade99 Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:29 am

    roanispe wrote:You make some valid points, but I think they could have been better rationalised. For stream of consciousness it was well done; much better than I could've. My personal view on the matter is that playing the game to its fullest extent allows for a real dominant strategy to be developed and, a legitimate counter to appear then a true counter-counter, ad infinitum. You might think of 'real', 'legitimate', and 'true' as unnecessary modifiers, but the importance of being so permitting of even what you currently think is unfair allows unorthodox responses to whatever is the current metagame is. What you think as unfair is often the counter to what you're doing. The ball is now in your court, and it is up to you decide how to respond to whatever is making you cry 'cheap!'

    However, I also believe that the 'Dueling' subgame of Dark Souls to be enjoyable needs to be based strongly on the principles of mutual respect for both players. The fact that both participants agree to follow a certain, equal set of rules allows it to be more fun, in my own opinion. This is what separates the 'Dueling' from the 'Invading' that you'll see so often in the Forest. There does exist this "Honor System" that is based on what the current player-base can handle. It might be worth respecting it to maximising everyone's enjoyment. It might also be worth noting that people can come up with the most novel of ideas in the most limiting of circumstances.
    I agree with so-called "fun dueling." However, I believe that if you are looking for "fun," then the Fight Club (FC) arenas are the best choice. In these, there are set rules that everyone can abide by. These rules often make the game more challenging, such as, no poise, or only +5 weapons, no family masks or DWGR, etc. However, many people try to limit playstyles in ALL occasions, such as the argument against the TWOP, miracles that rejuvenate vitality, or other tactics. I think these things are in the game for the build to take advantage of and shouldn't be frowned upon. The only things that I really dislike are the gankers and those individuals that use these unnecessary glitches.
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    Post by robsthedon Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:07 am

    roanispe wrote: I also believe that the 'Dueling' subgame of Dark Souls to be enjoyable needs to be based strongly on the principles of mutual respect for both players.

    Nicely put, most players using the RSS/hosting in recognised areas are respectful, i.e bowing, no healing, no running to host enemies.
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    Post by barecanvas Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:40 pm

    Weren't you the guy who said (not the exact quotation) "I don't like using the ninja flip ring, it just doesn't feel right derderp." How does it feel to be a sell-out?
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    Post by Spurgun Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:43 pm

    Are you talking to Martyr?
    He said that he doesn’t use the DWGR when he uses heavy armor, but he uses it with med/light armor. when he uses heavy armor ( i think he uses the black iron set) he is med rolling.
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    Post by dancash1808 Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:45 pm

    There is a big difference between having a personal preference in how you choose to play and attempting to force it on others canvas.
    the latter is what I assume he objects too.
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    Post by martyrsbrigade99 Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:58 pm

    barecanvas wrote:Weren't you the guy who said (not the exact quotation) "I don't like using the ninja flip ring, it just doesn't feel right derderp." How does it feel to be a sell-out?

    Okay, anyone who has "LISTENED" to my vids will know what I said concerning the DWGR. In fact, I'll put it in all caps for you to understand clearly:

    "IT DOES NOT LOOK RIGHT FOR A HEAVY BUILD TO BE FLIPPING AROUND LIKE A NINJA, MAINLY, BECAUSE HEAVY ARMOR ALREADY HAS THE BENEFIT OF HIGH POISE AND HIGH DEFENSE. ON THE OTHER HAND, I CAN SEE WHY A LITE/MEDIUM BUILD WOULD USE THE RING BECAUSE THEY LACK THE POISE AND DEFENSE AND THUS NEED THE HIGH MOBILITY."

    Since you are so quick to name call, please find just ONE of my videos wherein I'm wearing HEAVY armor and using a DWGR. I'll be waiting for your reply. In fact, if you look at my "Hunters or the hunted" video, I'm doing the medium roll because I'm wearing the Black Iron set which is HEAVY armor.
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    Post by martyrsbrigade99 Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:00 pm

    dancash1808 wrote:There is a big difference between having a personal preference in how you choose to play and attempting to force it on others canvas.
    the latter is what I assume he objects too.

    You are correct!
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    Post by bloodpixel Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:02 pm

    MsCherryBlossom strikes again.
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    Post by Spurgun Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:03 pm

    Yay, i was right when i said you used the black iron set silly

    OT. All of my builds are min/max builds, at least stat wise. But since 90% of them use the dragon body i can’t say that i am using them to their full potential silly. But i will use everything that the build has.
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    Post by dancash1808 Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:04 pm

    How do you mean blood? Ms was always a little contentious and confrontational but not outright offensive... or did I miss something?
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    Post by bloodpixel Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:07 pm

    No I'm just saying that she said something that a lot of people will complain about.
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    Post by dancash1808 Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:14 pm

    Ah, okay. well fortunately I think we are past the massive disagreements that we had for a while...
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    Post by barecanvas Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:19 pm

    martyrsbrigade99 wrote:
    barecanvas wrote:Weren't you the guy who said (not the exact quotation) "I don't like using the ninja flip ring, it just doesn't feel right derderp." How does it feel to be a sell-out?

    Okay, anyone who has "LISTENED" to my vids will know what I said concerning the DWGR. In fact, I'll put it in all caps for you to understand clearly:

    "IT DOES NOT LOOK RIGHT FOR A HEAVY BUILD TO BE FLIPPING AROUND LIKE A NINJA, MAINLY, BECAUSE HEAVY ARMOR ALREADY HAS THE BENEFIT OF HIGH POISE AND HIGH DEFENSE. ON THE OTHER HAND, I CAN SEE WHY A LITE/MEDIUM BUILD WOULD USE THE RING BECAUSE THEY LACK THE POISE AND DEFENSE AND THUS NEED THE HIGH MOBILITY."

    Since you are so quick to name call, please find just ONE of my videos wherein I'm wearing HEAVY armor and using a DWGR. I'll be waiting for your reply. In fact, if you look at my "Hunters or the hunted" video, I'm doing the medium roll because I'm wearing the Black Iron set which is HEAVY armor.
    calm down
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    Post by zzombieboy Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:54 pm

    Nice video. You presented your arguments well and you don't have unrealistic expectations about peoples responses.

    Personally I agree with everything with you say in the video, except 1 thing; somewhat predictable a grievance, but casting TWoP and then a 1-shot spell (in most circumstances). I don't think this is creative, and this is actually worse than casting TWoP and then running in for a hornet backstab imo because you are not giving the player a chance to counter your tactic as you are firing safely from a distance, without restricted mobility if they decide to shoot a spell at you. There are couple of more creative ways that I can think of to avoid having all your spells dodged if you are a focused caster.
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    Post by bloodpixel Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:27 pm

    barecanvas wrote:
    martyrsbrigade99 wrote:
    barecanvas wrote:Weren't you the guy who said (not the exact quotation) "I don't like using the ninja flip ring, it just doesn't feel right derderp." How does it feel to be a sell-out?

    Okay, anyone who has "LISTENED" to my vids will know what I said concerning the DWGR. In fact, I'll put it in all caps for you to understand clearly:

    "IT DOES NOT LOOK RIGHT FOR A HEAVY BUILD TO BE FLIPPING AROUND LIKE A NINJA, MAINLY, BECAUSE HEAVY ARMOR ALREADY HAS THE BENEFIT OF HIGH POISE AND HIGH DEFENSE. ON THE OTHER HAND, I CAN SEE WHY A LITE/MEDIUM BUILD WOULD USE THE RING BECAUSE THEY LACK THE POISE AND DEFENSE AND THUS NEED THE HIGH MOBILITY."

    Since you are so quick to name call, please find just ONE of my videos wherein I'm wearing HEAVY armor and using a DWGR. I'll be waiting for your reply. In fact, if you look at my "Hunters or the hunted" video, I'm doing the medium roll because I'm wearing the Black Iron set which is HEAVY armor.
    calm down
    Well, you did call him out on something he didn't do, on top of that you called him a sellout.
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    Post by omega Elf Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:58 pm

    why limit hornet ring bs's in 1v1 matches
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    Post by Spurgun Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:28 pm

    omega Elf wrote:why limit hornet ring bs's in 1v1 matches

    It’s a bit boring if you can OHK. That’s why a lot of people doesn’t use buffs either, it’s more fun if the battle lasts longer. This is assuming that you’re dueling.
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    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:11 pm

    if its a one shot spell... you probably have time to kneel and cast gmb on yourself negating most of the spells damage, but that requires a very particular build to do so most people wouldn't be able to counter effectively unless they have 50 str for havels shield... dex builds kinda get screwed by that twop spell thing... unless... maybe a leaping attack with a spear might work.... oh well back on topic, haven't watched the vid so i can't comment definitively but it sounds like you're simply laying out a good middle of the road approach...
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    Post by Spurgun Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:20 pm

    Pr you can just run away. I don’t if it’s a duel or not. If you’re casting TWoP then i am running away, or BS you while you cast it.
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    Post by Spurgun Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:29 pm

    barecanvas wrote:*deleted
    :|
    Don’t try to start a flame war, please? There was no need for that.

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