Artorias Lives!

Shkar that grave is likely a grave representing his ideological death, rather than his actual death.

Eolan wrote:He has a gimp arm doesnt he? Is that the same hand (right or left) as the creepy eyeballed one that takes you somewhere in the dlc?

His left arm, same as Sif's limp leg..

There's also a grave in the trailer, is it supposed to be the same place as his grave in the current game, but before the walls caved in?

And about the cursed sword. The other cursed swords we encounter are held by ghosts, which is probably how they got their cursed properties. So was Artorias turned into a ghost as well? What exactly are the ghosts, are they remnants of people falling to dark, or what's the general idea?

What is interesting is the relation to the abyss. As mentioned a while ago in the Darkroot thread, and the New Londo thread. The ghosts come from bodies resting after being slaughtered, with waters either in close proximity or direct contact with the Abyss. So, possibly it is the abyss that causes it, though Dark Wraith don't seem to be cursed to my knowledge. I wonder if he entered it before or after the work of the sealers, I'd have to assume before. Meaning getting cursed wouldn't help him. The DW are around in his time, as he hunted them. As well how could he enter the abyss with New Londo flooded. Meaning to enter New Londo, he shouldn't have needed a cursed greatsword. It strikes me more that his time in the abyss somehow cursed his weapon, and possibly Artorias himself.

I likened the cursed weapons to threads before and still think that fits the best. I think there's a few ways they can become threads but first the theory again. I like cloth analogies by the way:
The ghost world and the human/undead world can touch but not interfere/interact with one another in any meaningful way besides visually. So two sheets lying together. They can see each other but that's it. The cursed weapons are threads that tie them together in a meaningful way. They "pull" both cloths and can weave in an out of either as they please. But, here's a main feature, BOTH cloths can affect the thread too. So the weapons are "real" in both worlds and affect ghost and human in the same manner. Nothing else does this without a curse to bridge.

So a curse is basically making you "real" in two places at the same time. For the ghost weapons the likely answer is the common ghost answer. Their anger at the human world allows a bridge. Only an insane amount of rage can do this. Such as having your city drowned. For Artorias' sword the bridge likely came about by construct (see linking lore for my Muramasa connection to it and more importantly explanation on a blacksmith imbuing weapons with their spirit). In that way the person who gave him the sword is able to bridge both worlds or placed a curse to allow it to do so. Since there's no direct evidence Artorias can punch a ghost (yet anyway) there's no reason to suspect that he is the one that is the bridge that cursed the sword although that is possible. However, since the divine sword was given to Sif rather than being corrupted (there are design differences so they're most likely not the same sword before and after by the way) the easiest answer is that the sword was made from the ground up to be cursed.

seathtoldmeto8 wrote:A grave doesn't necessarily mean death...hell according to video games and anime and books and movies and all that jazz an actual on screen death itself sometimes doesn't even mean a death.

But this isn't bad anime, it's dark souls.

Dark Souls would definitely be different with a half chaos demon character named Guy Kazama with his love interest, that turns into a giant talking white cat when exposed to moonlight.

He strikes me as being dead at the time of the game, before the DLC. But something interesting is always how time works in game, possibly where Ingward exists he lives, but to us he is dead. I can't really say, it's very confusing sometimes.

So Artorias is still lives, but he is a boss in the DLC. I'm interested to see how this will work out.

You're right Tolvo, in that the effect of time in this game makes things very confusing. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Artorias is alive in the timeframe that Ingward is in.

As for the swords, I like the idea that they are actually two different blades. Considering the obvious differences in their make, and the fact that Sif has the original version of the weapon. (Someone said once that the sword disappears after you kill Sif. As in that it warps somewhere else. I killed him more times than I can count by now, and I've seen it fall out of his mouth and into the ground like it was when you first saw it only to simply vanish into a white blur. I'm under the impression that since it was registered as part of the boss after you touch it, it simply disappears along with the boss. It doesn't go anywhere special. It's just something the creators did. This is irrelevant, but I figured I would throw it in.)

Ciaran may or may not have loved Artorias, and some may argue that she died peacefully at his grave because of the way the corpse is laid behind it. But that's only assuming that this (corpse x holds y item, thus it must be where person x died in their world.) theory is even true. I feel that it's just corpses laid about holding items. For example, when you get invaded and die; your souls stay where you died. Yet when you invade Lautrec and kill him, his corpse appears somewhere totally different. That in itself makes me believe that corpses are simply a medium to give you items. They don't necessarily dictate that a certain person died in that exact spot. (Another thing worth noting is that the Wolf Ring of Artorias is found on a body in the game. If the corpse theory is true, then Artorias is indeed dead in our timeline. That would only cement that fact.)

That isn't to say Ciaran didn't die at the grave of Artorias. But she was one of the Four Knights of Gwyn. She had to be considerably powerful, and as such anyone who could have killed her was likely powerful as well. Yet if the corpse theory is true, then someone laid her down peacefully and took everything except her ring. Her dagger (if she used one), her armor/cloth/whatever, all of that was taken. Otherwise it would have been on her corpse. (Of course Gough's ring is found in a box and not on his body. So it's possible that the knights all betrayed Gwyn at one point aside from Ornstein. Which would explain why he is working with Smough instead of Ciaran or Gough. Back to the point, if he didn't have his ring on him. Then maybe Ciaran and Artorias also took off their rings upon betraying Gwyn. Which means it may not even be Ciaran behind the grave.)

This is just going in circles. I'm done typing xD.

I'd say the best piece of evidence against that being her corpse, is the fact that it is a human corpse. The knights of Gwyn seem to be like what the Silver Knights are, or the gods themselves. They don't seem to be human, at all. Artorias wields a giant sword if what Sif wields is his true one, Ornstein is pretty massive, Gough's signature bow is not designed for human use, but perhaps she was the odd one of the bunch. I wouldn't say its evidence, but it makes it more unlikely that the body there is her's. In my opinion.

If I may leave the idea here, Ingward DOES think Artorias is still alive by telling you to "Find Artorias, he can show you how to enter the Abyss".



But the problem with that is, if Artorias is known as a bad man by betraying Gwyn, why is someone in service of Gwyn telling you to go meet him?

Slarg232 wrote:If I may leave the idea here, Ingward DOES think Artorias is still alive by telling you to "Find Artorias, he can show you how to enter the Abyss".

But the problem with that is, if Artorias is known as a bad man by betraying Gwyn, why is someone in service of Gwyn telling you to go meet him?

This is why I always say Artorias' betrayal (and maybe death) were covered up - people seem to know he traversed the Abyss, but not that he eventually made a covenant with the creatures there.

Hi all, been reading a lot of the stuff on these forums over the past few months but just thought I would now throw my two cents in, not too sure if you guys will agree but it is worth thinking about perhaps.

I personally think Artorias was supposed to be alive in the game however due to whatever time constraints FROM had, these parts of the game were inevitably removed or not completed (evidence for this is found in numerous character stories not being accessible in the game). The painted world in general feels incomplete, almost as if it were the place they dumped a lot of things which didn't end up fitting with the final release they had, evidence of the Covenant of Velka lead me to believe that originally FROM would of had bigger plans for the Covenant of Artorias and the Abyss, as currently neither have any real purpose, besides Kaathe. Again New Londo almost seems too small and perhaps there was more to this part in their original plans. Perhaps with this FROM had to re engineer the fight with Sif whereby players couldn't let him live (maybe originally you could which would then unlock the path to the upcoming DLC). And the grave was lets say a last minute inclusion whereby it could partially explain his absence from he game, which could also explain missed typos in the Wolf ring which lead us to believe he is alive.

All my own speculation, and I probably missed a few bits out but let me know what you think!

Anyone ever think that Artorias just is Sif? Would really explain why a wolf chooses to use a sword...

The fact the cat ring states that Alvina, Sif and Artorias were good friends.

seathtoldmeto8 wrote:I personally look forward to using Artorias' armor because it looks so battle worn, especially the remnants of the blue cape around his shoulders.

Anybody else pissed that they took the plume off of Ornstein's armor?

Tis not a plume good sir. It's his hair.

Johnny, also descriptions point out that Sif inherited the divine sword. Also also, the actual design of the divine vs. cursed sword is different which suggests a lot of things regarding warrior/weapon connections (especially in Japanese weapon philosophy) that makes it unlikely that, assuming Artorias left his weapon behind for a later version of himself (and Sif is likely female), that it would be the divine version.


EDIT: Welcome to the forum bendtosquares. There's a chance of that being true but the new content was supposedly not the cut content that was snipped due to time constraints. I still say it's possible because an Artorias in the past is technically different than an Artorias in the "present."

The sword you use, Artorias' sword, was created recently and would not have battle scars. It's a replica, not the real thing. The power you get from it is from the soul you use to create it with, but it's just a replica.

Our sword is a replica for sure. There's no reason to think Sif's is though unless Sif killed Artorias. Which is possible

So what's the general consensus? Is Artorias alive or dead in the current time?

Dead. I mean Im pretty sure you kill him in the DLC, dont know what FROM will do if you win the fight though, they may pull off a nice trick.

Dead

Well, looks like me using that as proof of Fate in Dark Souls may still hold up until we know for sure.

I think "They covered up his death" is just a little too far-fetched for Dark Souls.

Artorias' grave is exactly where you fight Arty in the DLC; that big arena. You kill him.

...but when he starts limping, you can let him live.

Lancelot wrote:I think "They covered up his death" is just a little too far-fetched for Dark Souls.

Artorias' grave is exactly where you fight Arty in the DLC; that big arena. You kill him.

In the videos when the player leaves the sanctuary guardian arena he crosses a bridge and at the other side is a cliff ledge that really reminds me of the bridge and arena where you fight Sif