Why do people complain?

SlakeMoth wrote:The whole point of PvP is to win and, just like in real life, people will do anything to come out on top because, let's face it folks, everybody loves a winner don't they? Well no, from my experience winners are often disliked intensely especially by the losers because winners are often self centred, selfish people who will stoop to anything to be, well, winners. An unpalatable truth I know but nevertheless it's become the way things are, sadly.

Just for the record I don't do PvP so I have no particular axe to grind on this issue.

Or they're just good...

Another thing that i think is unfair is when people dont give you enough time to get up after they backstab you. This one guy invaded me, parry me with the demon machete(hit me 3 times), and backstabbed me as soon as i got up.

Parry right after you stand up. Pretty easy to get it when you kniw they're going to attack. Works against people trying to chain BS you also.

@Slake

There are different types of winners, though. There are graceful winners, who are talented, and don't bring people down when they win. There are "try-hards", who will exploit everything they can to win--those are not liked. And there are those who live by the motto "if you can't beat 'em, cheat!" They think it's funny when they mention their personal motto, but I think it's an appalling way of acting that brings everyone and the game down.

Why do we complain? I don't like to complain, but if I do it's because I want to foster an environment in which people are encouraged to be graceful winners. I dislike try-hards and cheats, so I try and dissuade people from stooping to that level and, instead, elevate their game and win by being good players.

Well said, my man. It's all about elevating the game for me too. Both in terms of skill level and the community as a whole.

SlakeMoth wrote:The whole point of PvP is to win and, just like in real life, people will do anything to come out on top because, let's face it folks, everybody loves a winner don't they? Well no, from my experience winners are often disliked intensely especially by the losers because winners are often self centred, selfish people who will stoop to anything to be, well, winners. An unpalatable truth I know but nevertheless it's become the way things are, sadly.

Just for the record I don't do PvP so I have no particular axe to grind on this issue.

Thats attitude exactly is primarily held in the western world (ie america and and parts of europe), and its a symptom of our cultural fascination with the concept of "fair." The apparent "selfcenterdness" and "selfishness" are developed traits to defend what the individual worked to achieve, while others scorn them out of spite and envy and/or demand a share in the interest of an ill-consieved notion of fairness. They're often unpopular because they refuse to give away what they earned. They're forced to choose between being bled out by parasites with a sense of entitlement, or being liked.

In other places, some places in europe, japan, india, hard work, dedication and accomplishment, in most any marketable skill (including playing video games,) are met with praise and encouragement, others frequently model their lives on the dream of being as successful and strive to reach, even surpass the accomplishments of their role models. Even if the individuals talents lie elsewhere, they revere and encourage success achieved by both themselves and others.

Everywhere has both views of course, and this is based on my experience (yes I do have experience with the cultures I mentioned), so take it with a grain of salt, but thats the conclusion I've reached and why, if I have children they will be born and raised outside america.

These conversations always happens. How irritating

Blaine, I always wondered what sort of warrior you are, given you were known as a guru of statistics (which Rynn seems to do now, nice girl). Perhaps I would like to see you in combat.

Pick your fair gain, I got soul levels that are between 1 to 210, and they are ready to destroy... And many are gravelords, while the rest are princess guard (fascinating). I have been known to Gravelord a lot... Perhaps an encounter of a Gravelord in your lively fortress might bring some form of challenge, as I will be using the Fortress to my advantage...

And I know every square inch of it, and every path and loop hole... I even know how to swing a sword. Although I prefer to use my arms, I have Pyromancies and faith... Although they are not fire Pyromancies nor WoG/Lightning miracles (other than Sunlight Blade for a few), rather they are usually spells that are ignored... I give them love

If you want to fight, my username is my Wikispace name... Not Saturday, as I am busy, but Sunday and forward I can fight you... Just be careful about the ledges.

@Forum:

You make it sound so negative, when in fact I don't think it is at all. I think it's a result of the Western idea that everyone is equal. Obviously not everyone can be equal, but we try and make it so as much as possible. Historically, before the West, the worth of a human life outside of the highest ranks of society was worthless. If I had to pick between a society that strives for fairness or one that celebrated "accomplishment", I would certainly pick the former.

@Acidic

I'm taking a break from DkS at the moment, otherwise I'd have loved to fight you! As for the kind of warrior I am, I have to say I went through every kind... I was probably one of the first people who abused the Hornet's Ring and spent a chunk of time back in October just backstabbing a lot of people to death, until I realized it was pretty cheap. Then I tried pretty much every weapon and play style in the game, until in the end I settled into the ultimate fair-player... I could go on, but if you just check the builds in my link it'll probably tell you most of what you need to know!

Edit: the links to my builds seem to be broken right now... But basically: no DWGR, no masks, no buffs, no pyro spells on melee characters, no grass crest shield, etc. It's what I consider closest to the way the game is "supposed" to be played (normal stamina regen, fast roll only if under 25% weight, no maxed out spells on characters with no stats for magic, etc.). I don't expect everyone to play by my rules, it's just what I settled into after having experienced pretty much every aspect of PvP. And by then I was good enough to win with a handicap, so in a way it only made fights more fair for my opponents! Alright by me.

I like surprises, so I won't take a peak.

But fairness is relative as I said before, and equal is false in many cases in a complicated system of equations... Including Dark Souls. However the idea in which every man is as equal of a man as another is absolute in itself. Every man is man, no matter what their form is, or in sine cases even their essence. Looking up or down upon someone is a revolting factor... Recognition of their different qualities however is not, which those qualities can have both negative and positive outlooks and outcomes in general; Equal in quality is not acceptable to exist.

So I must say that this term of 'fairness' and 'ascension' will continue here and everywhere across the world... But looking at the two you can easily break them down to nothing with a snap at all of their flaws in terms of their 'morals and ethics'. Either way, these conversations in general are getting better at there being less trolls and flamers, I can see that quality show... Even though the past times of strife were entertaining.

Acidic_Cook wrote:Even though the past times of strife were entertaining.

lol

Well, there's a constant influx of new users on the forums, and everyone needs to have their turn at the "honor" and the "backstab" debates! But once they've been in one of those incendiary threads, which always pop up again from time to time, they realize it's useless to argue about it that way. After that, I guess we approach the subjects in different manners. It's a learning process, everyone needs to go through it!

I know... It doesn't mean it can't be revolting though, it just means it will continue ever so...

Because complaining is a staple trait of human beings.

I had a big speech on why your idea that everyone is equal is flawed, but the power cut out. Suffice it to say, that just because each individual is just as important as any other, doesn't mean some arn't more beneficial than others, nor does it mean that those who succeed should be required to share. If I must share everything I earn, I have no motive to earn. I can simply demand someone else share, eventually few support many because everyone starves if they don't. I must enjoy the fruit of my labor to be motivated to succeed, and by encouraging success and we drive society forward in every aspect of its excistance.

LD_Soze wrote:I really enjoy this forum and all the contributors but I really don't get the "honorable pvp" stuff. I get it for pre arranged duels etc. But when I am running around human it is kill or be killed - I don't care what you do to kill me and I will do whatever I have to do to kill you.

I tried to be honorable and bow and slap mu opponents face with a glove and set a duel time and walk off twenty paces etc etc but all it ever got me is backstabbed. If you invade me and bow I'll kill ya...sry once burned twice shy

This is the wrong way to go about it. If they bow then why use a cheap bs or something else. You are no better then the people you are talking about. Just don't bow back. Fin.

Forum, there is nothing wrong with being kind to others. Sure it is sometimes a bit annoying to be nice to one's competition, but imagine if the competition in turn no longer wishes to compete. It's always a good idea to be civil to other people. Most don't like to be alone, though of course some do. Misanthropic tendencies are becoming more and more common today, but even most of those who hate the world still don't wish to be alone in it. If I win a race I'm not going to brag about it and talk about how everything I did was just much better than my competition. I'm going to do a litle jig, laugh, and probably go over to the others who are most likely my friend and just talk with them with a smile on my face. There's nothing wrong with being a good guy.

I never said there was. I do share the benefit of what megar successes I achieve with people, but its my choice wether or not to and what to share. I'll happily loan a friend 50 bucks or give someone I've never met a ten if they're short at the store. If someone is struggling with a problem I believe I can answer, I offer to do so. However, my room, playstation and books are mine, no one is allowed to enter/play/touch them, ever.

I try to live by the rule "treat others as you wish to be treated."

This doesn't negate my argument that in life, there is really only success and failure. Success may not be intentional, and success can be graded, but success drives everything. By holding back (by mitegating the desire to succeed by attempting to limit the benefits by demanding the successful party shares) and shunning the successful, we also hold back every aspect of society. If one cannot do as they please with their success, what point is there to succeed? If apple didn't get to keep their profits on the ipod, why bother to make it?

By insisting on being "fair" and teaching people that "everyone is a winner" we set them up for failure by teaching them that there's no reason to try, because they "succeed" anyways. Even when one does excell, they are often scorned for wrinkling the illusion that no-one is "better"(read as special, gifted, a hard worker) than anyone else by proving their superiority in that respect, proving that not everyone wins, they win, and such wrinkles are deeply disturbing to those who build their lives on the belief that mediocritiy is only fair, because if anyone excells then not everyone wins.

I wasn't promoting being a pompous douche or an arrogant jackass, I was saying that "fair" in the real world, doesn't exist. There is only success and failure. I was saying that success should be revered and upheld, that everyone should strive to be successful rather than putting in the minimum effort and hampering those who refuse to be mediocre. I theorised that if we praised the successful for their accomplishments rather than alienating them, perhaps fewer successful people world be selfish pricks

Who is chastising others for being successful, or asking for a hand out?

The western world, but my long off topic rant was triggered by the second sentence in slakes post, which I quoted at the top of the page. That was my original point, that success is often met with such unpleasantness that the less desirable traits associated with it develop in people who wouldn't otherwise posess them, as a coping mechanism for being so disliked.

There are always arrogant people and selfish people, but people constantly looking to beat a successful person specificly and praising and welcoming success rather than an insistence that the successful lower themselves to the "normal" level by attempting to strip them of or mitegate their success would like see a decline in both of these traits among winners, even if only external in some cases.

My gripe wasn't about this forum actually (though I see examples here as well), its centered around american public school and pop culture mostly, but I couldn't restrain my rant once it got started, even if, after the first couple sentenced it only applies loosely to dks specifically.

Ah alright then, and that's sort of a universal thing really. People just like to look at people, and if there is something different about that person they'll just use that as a justification for their dislike. It's annoying, but eh it's just how people are.

Oh I agree, but I see that mentality as a cultural aspect of america specifically, where the hate is the counter culture in other places, based on my admittedly limited experience and the second hand knowledge of foreign friends. I can't see a positive future for any civilsation that , as a whole, is hell bent on bring everyone don't to their level rather than striving to reach the heights others do.

Every man is man, that is the only aspect of equal; qualities of each man to another is always different, and thus not equal. It is what I am trying to say Forum, everyone is different yet everyone is human. Do nit think I see equality in anyone other than the aspect of them bring in the same group we call humanity, the reality is everyone is different.

And I also say that the flaws of both 'fairness' and 'ascension' are clear. The flaws of ascension being not of growth, as I agree with that philosophy. Rather, the ways of obtaining such ascension that includes the destruction of others in any way possible to reach their goal usually has way to much negative outlooks and outcomes that will happen to the chooser both in present and future, as all choices do... Even the tiniest ones, cons and pros follow from start to sometimes many many years, even after death. The butterfly effect, no?

Ascension is also relative as well, as people ascend for usually ONE aspect. Sports, business, arts, media, technology, farming, and so on. The ascension reaches usually for one aspect, while leaving the person vulnerable to instant fallings when that aspect is lost, and the other professions and hobbies begin to show that person as no better than those within them. Again, quality. Even the aspect in ascension of the essence, that of personality and thought, can only go so far until they are brought down from the paths they take towards ascension. Sometimes, when people see such ascension and/or the path taken towards it, people either remove any connective helping to them or they reach towards rebellion. Whether successful or not, the ascending path taken descends the factors of human connection. Such ascension taken in Dark Souls also is the same.

If they wanted better ascension, perhaps they should learn to kill with lesser equipment against the more powerful, even if they hold a weapon of a god. To show that skill is far superb than dependence upon the tools they have is a safer ascension that what many have followed in their flawed aspect of min/max efficiency.

In a hospital it makes you feel a bit guilty about equality. The guy in the bed next to me is going to be here for two weeks, can't eat, sleeps most of the time, and has no means of entertainment. Sort of makes me feel bad for having a laptop, and that I'm only here for another day or two, as well I can eat.

I hate guilt... Even though I can sympathize and empathize, I hate guilt... It's an annoying, hindering mentality.

But sleeping has its own qualities, Tolvo; A land of the mind can make time pass by easier than staying awake than doing nothing... A good aspect, as he has found a way to pass time even with a lack of choice.

I don't hate that I feel gulty, at the same time I don't feel like I owe him anything, it just sucks to have more than others. I just hope his family visits today, they always seem to make him happy.

It sucks to have less than others as well, comrade. You may feel guilt as other do, as much as other feel like a sucker when they see other better... We call that envy.

Besides, I find that family visits that make him happy and his dream past tines is a good way to stay happy and good.