Why are invaders looked down upon?

hmm... I believe Fromsoft did a pretty good job at distinguishing between a spirit/phantom and the AI. Making sure that the player can identify whether or not he/she should step up their game if possible. I agree to a point that dying is dying, but dying to a spirit is not the same as dying to the AI. I can beat Anor Londo with a +5 fire weapon but if a spirit pops in half way through and has OCR/FSPR and Black Knight gear, I mind as well disconnect or let him backstab me. It would be a pointless fight.

cool, I am building a Sl. 100 dm knight/half roleplay character.

I did that playthrough. How? Google... Why?... Great Lord gear at the start.

n0rain wrote:@Blaine and Reim

I went my entire demon's souls career without invading people because I thought it was evil and I make a point to be a "good" character. Are you telling me this style or code of ethics should be compromised based on a "you don't know man, you weren't in nam" kind of mindset?

Just for the record, I feel from a lore perspective the Darkwraiths should be looked down on and Darkmoons should be revered and overall respected for their duties. That's just me though.

Regarding the invader's strategy and "don't knock it until you've tried it", I was more referring to statements like all invaders are BS fishers and the like.

As far as lore goes, of course we're evil, as the game goes. But, as the game is played, we are an integral part of it, and therefore, not unethical.

I don't mean to be rude but your statement is an oxymoron in the sense that darkwraiths pretty much embody the definition of the word unethical. Even from a lore perspective. Unless of course you deny the facts that Darkwraiths are instructed to take hummanity by any means necessary and adhere to those instructions quite well. In such case you would have correctly used the word. So the question is I suppose, do you think over half the population of Darkwraiths have moral principles when it comes to taking hummanity?

Spoiler:

I mean unethical as a gamer. An example of an unethical gaming tactic is ganking.

I don't know how to answer the lore question. I can tell you that this game was designed for invasions (which are countered by coop play). If nobody invaded, that would be unethical as per the game's designed rules of play.

I think you answered my question without meaning to?

Let me try this. Is it in your opinion that the majority of the darkwraith's in the game play with the adherence of proper conduct? In any form so as not to attract any debates on things that people may find subjective. For the sake of the question we will lump the entire experience together as a whole.

Unethical is not lacking use of principles, it is the abuse of principles that are commonly seen as proper. So to not invade would be a neutral stand point since you lack the need of principles(in this situation). This is why there is a second part to the definition as it isn't meant to say you lack the ability to use principles so you are unethical, but instead you use principles against knowing what is proper therefore you are unethical. The word moral before principle completely changes the first part. I hope I wasn't too confusing.

IM not sure if this has been pointed out before but all covenants have thier 'good', 'moral', 'bad', and 'evil' players and the Darkmoons and Darkwraiths are no exception, hell even the notorious sunbro's have thier darker cousins.

It, to me, seems illogical to bring into a coversation about invaders the lore of the covenants. Sure I suppose the purpose of the covenant does impact on how people will percieve invaders... yeah ill acknowledge that.

Some people see Darkwraiths as the villains of the game and will respond visciously, other see them as the champions of humanity and the 'right' way to pvp.

What I find unfathomable is why people react to invaders the way they do. Its like the invasion indicator suddenly puts a host into panic mode....

Now morals has absolutely nothing to do with Dark Souls in my opinion. All aspects of the game are fair and all aspects of the game are abusable. It might be considered 'morality' as to how much one abuses on does not abuse these factors because at some point everyone does. Is it immoral to dupe, probably, is it immoral to chain BS, perhaps depending on the circumstances, is it wrong to stunlock or abuse the r1 of certain weapons, a little bit but not really. (Dont go all over the top on this one, im trying to remain impassive here....)

@ n0rain- I dont understand why you view the Darkwraiths as 'evil' or bad players.... they are the equivalent of Darkmoons just without the magic lightsabre buff.

I have never been an official Darkwraith but I invade often enough... and sometimes the hosts reaction to my mere prescence is totally disgusting.... boom they summon two phantoms rather than fight me straight up, they fish, they do all the things that people assume Darkwraiths are thought to do.....they whip out on you

Then have the audacity to send rude messages, gesture, and take the high road saying that summoned 3v1's aren't the same a ganks because I started the whole thing.....

Im not complaing just struggling to understand why the pvp meta is the way it is.

Why people insist that they are the good guys all the time, why they cant stand to lose, and why they can complain about certain tactics then make use of such themselves....

n0rain I fear I'm not fully interpreting your moral standpoint however if your implying that invading as a darkwraith is inherently evil through a lore perspective it could easily be argued that wraiths are merely attempting to save Humanity [all people] from their own ignorance, as they sacrifice humanity to the flame they renounce their very sanity in the name of gods which see them as pawns. Kaith's wraiths steal this humanity from the blind so as to safeguard it until mankind is ready to stand through its own volition.

On the side of the players who invade they are not the true threat of being invaded it is the loss of life and time, but this is just the message the game sends, I agree with Forum Pirate in saying death via invasion or pve is ultimately identical. The fear of invasion is based in a lack of experience, I for one gladly admit I was terrified when I was first invaded, I feared dieing but more so I feared being crushed, but this is the same feeling as the first time the taurus demon chased me down the bridge or the first time I was cornered in the Capra demon's lair. Invasions are simply rarer forms of death and as such they are seen as more difficult, but once you die everything goes back to the way it was, you are hollowed and only mobs stand between you and your precious souls.

If someone dislikes being invaded that deeply they can simply join the way of the white, its presented before invasions are possible for a reason. If you wish to experience more of the land of Lordran then do so whole heatedly, and before all else Prepare to Die.

^ This!

I actually tried my best to remain neutral but since the hot topic was Darkwraiths I felt obligated to speak only of them to stay on topic. As far as them being evil, you could question it based on your own code, but the lore of the game clearly points to the overwhelming possibility that darkness is evil. As far as bad, I don't think all darkwraiths are bad persay, but not ethical yes. From more than one stand point based on my experiences with them. I was on my new char the other night when a DW invaded me at the goyles. It came to pass that he hadd poison knives and dung pies, and more than just a hand full. He poisoned and toxined me. I then put my shield up and he force's me to hit me with a lightning uchi as I get up. I think it is commonly known that his methods do not adhere to any moral compass. He may not be a bad player, but his ethics tell me he is someone who does not have a good moral compass and frankly I don't want to play with people like that. Now, you could say I am judgmental because of my conclusions, but I will be a donkey's jack *** if I were to say its fun even though the overwhelming majority of the situations end in me thinking that the man/woman that just invaded me has zero ethical value.

I have seen darkmoons that do this too, but it is much more rare.
In a nutshell the DW's have established a sickening reputation and rightffully so based on the playerbase's actions. It shouldn't be in question what is considered morally sound at this point. I think we can all agree there are bad apples all over the place. My question though is based on opinion. Until we can answer this question the ideas in this thread will be skewed and possibly misinterpreted.

The Question

Spoiler:

Once this is answered we can come to a conclusion and an agreement even if we do agree to disagree.

n0rain I fear I'm not fully interpreting your moral standpoint however if your implying that invading as a darkwraith is inherently evil through a lore perspective

That is exactly what I have said.

it could easily be argued that wraiths are merely attempting to save Humanity [all people] from their own ignorance, as they sacrifice humanity to the flame they renounce their very sanity in the name of gods which see them as pawns. Kaith's wraiths steal this humanity from the blind so as to safeguard it until mankind is ready to stand through its own volition.

Which is easily countered by how the majority of npc's percieve the covenant and the flavour text that sets you up into believing it's an evil covenant. By all means you may feel you are doing a greater good, but that is what is so good about it. You are evil and you believe that by doing these evil things you are creating a better tomorrow. Essentially what you end up with is a Magneto point of view which in his very nature is villianous. It is wonderful that Fromsoft allows players to think this way. Rather enables the players to think this way.

On the side of the players who invade they are not the true threat of being invaded it is the loss of life and time, but this is just the message the game sends, I agree with Forum Pirate in saying death via invasion or pve is ultimately identical. The fear of invasion is based in a lack of experience, I for one gladly admit I was terrified when I was first invaded, I feared dieing but more so I feared being crushed, but this is the same feeling as the first time the taurus demon chased me down the bridge or the first time I was cornered in the Capra demon's lair. Invasions are simply rarer forms of death and as such they are seen as more difficult, but once you die everything goes back to the way it was, you are hollowed and only mobs stand between you and your precious souls.

I want to agree so badly with this, but I can't while knowing that in the event of an invasion there is the possibility that your character can become completely useless if invaded by the right build. In PvE you can't ever become completely nulified by the obstacles. Even when you attack Ceaseless or Quelaag with a fire weapon you aren't completely useless in defeating them. Do you see where I am going with this? There are builds that completely nulify others and unless you know exactly what you need and go for it then you are highly unfavoured.

Other than what I have said, dark spirits just rub me the wrong way because of my experience in Demon's Souls. That is a personal opinion that isn't necessarily a point I want to bring into the discussion. It's just a side note for the record.

Many thanks Viral I aim to spread the blight of knowledge

I honestly and wholeheartedly believe that the majority of players will do whatever they can to win regardless of an arbitrary covenant alliance, in reality poison is just a tool to pressure enemies and it appears your aforementioned wraith was rather adept however daggers can be sidestepped and dung pies roll around, unless your confident in your greatshield you should always roll wake up. His attacks reflect your play style as well, no amount of weapons or items will guarantee victory and you simply faced an opponent of higher skill.

On the note of lore the bonfires fuel the power of the gods and maintain their rule, however the gods are not omnipotent they are not immortal and most of all they are far from infallible, the only true god we face is a lonely son who twisted the shell of anor londo into a grand lie to inspire the faithful to sacrifice themselves in the name of a dead lord. The very bonfires that the faithful praise feed off their humanity and drive them hollow. They're divine plan for the chosen undead is simply to provide the greatest fuel for the fires since gwyn himself. This game does a beautiful job of feeding us pieces of the picture but they are not facts they are the knowledge of the characters who share it, some are blind passing on what they've been told other's sharing only what they want to be heard and a small few relinquishing their puzzle pieces in the hopes you'll get farther before you too go hollow.

I believe the core of the original argument is the mater of experience, as players gain experience we grow but we tend to forget the joys of those without an inner understanding of the game. Once we learn how to counter ever enemy and tackle every every boss the only challenge is to take that which we know and flood it with pvp creating challenges we couldn't possibly predict. The fact is innocent hosts are often unprepared and see the invader at an unfair advantage, but the hosts who are prepared for pvp are by definition farming. I believe the balance can only be found by each player rising to the occasion and fighting to preserve every piece of humanity as best they can.
If your host is threatened defend him, but if an invader feels ganked do what you can to give him a 1v1 if he runs off from a turtling host follow him, drop a humanity and duel away, but whatever you do never believe you are better than another player because of the rules you give yourself, you have no idea what they're trying to accomplish or how desperate they are.
That being said those who rely on tricks and deceit will never best experience.

Im done.

Ok. Massive walls of text here. It is 3am in my neck of the woods. I'll sum up my feelings.

The crux of the issue is ethics are subjective. There is no way of circumventing this.

This game is centered around both coop and invasions. As such, I have no moral qualms about invading. I invade and fight according to my own morals; what I feel is right. I feel this behavior is ethical.

Agreed.

Though lore wise both sides, DM and DW, are somewhat in a grey area.

Humanity and Dark are too closely linked and the nature of how the Darkwraith operate leads to the assumption that they are rather dastardly....

Agreed im a dumbass.

???

Im cool with it. No biggie... I can accept my role

I think this is what happens with a lot of thread on this forum so Ill ask another mod to review this thread..... but we cant always convince other people and since this is such a contentious issue perhaps we shouldnt try to convince others.

I dont know?

In any case im interested in you Velka theories to Ill start posting there !

hmm hey Im new here...but anyway I wanted to discuss my opinion and experiences when it comes to being invaded.

I use to be one of those players who looked down upon invaders, I couldn't stand it. I will always say something like "aw S***" or "F***K off the game is hard enough as it is for me" and to this day I still find it annoying...however, When i tried invading just to see how it is well things were not red and blue for me. The host I ran into were WELL prepared for my invasion, One guy lured me to the bridge in anor londo and used wrath of god to knock me off the platform ofc I fell for it......another time is when I invaded in anor londo. I entered the room where the bonfire is in the main hallway with silver knights, then I saw a host and a white phantom. I tried to run away but while i was being attacked by the host the white phantom closed the door locking me inside...no escape although the white phantom did not interfere in the battle I still lost the 1 on 1 to the host so invading is harder than it seems because the host have come well prepared.

Anyway...thats the kind of game you're playing. Ofc there is hollow form and offline play to not deal with the invasions...but with me I just wanna play online sometimes so I can co-op with some people and kill a few bosses. But yeah all I know is its just another mechanic of the game, some people don't mind it others hate it. I don't frown about invaders now..just let u know that if u invade me I have come well prepared..im ready for that extra challenge I can hide and surprise u, or fight u face to face or even summon a phantom for a 2 on 1 so invasions are not all that simple as it seems......

Your testimony is much appreciated! Welcome to the forums.

If you don't want to get invaded, play hollow or offline. Although, one thing that has annoyed me on the PC - getting non-stop summon failed messages while trying to get help for S&O, yet still getting invaded non-stop.

I don't get why I have a hard time summoning/being summoned - but I can be invaded/invade just fine.

I've only recently started doing PvP, but if I invade someone that is progressing in content/currently engaged in PvE, I've generally been nice and let them finish up the fight and heal before starting to fight.

B-b-but I wanna talk about lore more...

I would like to point out that Yes bonfires to drain the humanity out of undead until they are hallowed. But what energy do you think they use to keep spitting you back out? you can't respawn 437 times your first playthrough without SOMETHING being spent. Maybe Gwyn would've never had to link the fire in the first place if the darksign didn't start sucking up all the fires power.

The way I see invasions, are there are exactly three types.

1. Preset level ranges, I invade the burg at 120 because I expect I will run into people at or near that level and they will be ready and willing to have a fight.

2. Greifing. XxXGiantmomXxX invade that burg at level 15 because he expects everyone there will be totally unprepared for his sweet chaos claymore. Or perhaps him and two buddies hang around the forest...

3. I have no name for this. I wanted on my gut reaction to call it RP, but that's not quite right. Ever run into a sl50 Iron Golem DW in sen's? Or been gravelorded in the tomb? These people sit at a specific soul level so they can "catch" players as they pass through an area. It's similar to Griefing but it lacks the farce. By sl 70 I expect my too lazy to farm slabs on this +14 BSS isn't way out of hand compared to my opponents weapon. I'm not really intentionally seeking out "as unfair a fight as I can"

I think each has it's own merit. Yes I just said that greifing and ganking have merits. If not for burg dwelling haveldads I'd never have considered running through the game at base soul level (which I thought must be the only way you could obtain such armor at such a level, then bbg happened)

A small story if you're in the mood. skip if not

Spoiler:

Ganking is similar. I'd have not faired very well in many 2v1 or even 3v1 invasions this past weekend if I didn't have the experience of three people simultaneously trying to remove me forcibly from their world.

That said while I am glad some people gank, I don't myself. I do not actually think anyone besides me can stand being RSS summoned into a 3v1 and not feel like their time is being wasted. I'm not saying we don't exist, what I mean is I do not think being happy about getting summoned into a 3v1 and being happy is something we should EXPECT everyone to adhere to. We all have our own version of fun right?

I've invaded plenty, and I understand why some people look down on it.

Basically, they're the people that can't deal with an invasion. When I started, trying to coop, an invasion meant instant death unless I could get to the boss (unlikely being a new player) or I could summon someone for coop.

The comments "Just play offline or hallowed" I disagree with; I LIKE playing with friends. That's why I got this game; an action/zelda type RPG that you could coop.

Saying "just deal with being killed all the time"... well, that sucks. The game is hard enough, I had no idea where to farm humanity, I had a limited supply, my weapons "could" have been upgraded, but I didn't know where, and I didn't have great stats, weapon choices, knowledge of how to use it, etc, etc.

Invasion meant death. So why would I say, "oh well, its just part of the game instant death.". I didn't learn anything, except to run for it, to summon other people, or to disconnect. Those were my tools. Being unfamiliar with a level, usually meant #3.

So yeah, I look down on most invaders. When I invade, I have no issues with them defending themselves at all costs. It literally costs the invader nothing to invade, but costs the host humanity. Most good players, this isn't a big deal. But my first couple of playthroughs, humanity was a precious commodity that I ran out of constantly.

When I invade, I size up my opponent and test them. If they're a newbie, I may exit or if I'm feeling generous I may just let them kill me to get some more souls or fight with really sub par weapons and not backstab.

This game is really hard. And people want to play it online with other people. And easy kills aren't my thing; I'm not going to punish people that already have a hard time with this game and justify it with "its part of the game". I have some empathy for them, and try to guess what it feels to be them on the other end. I want everyone to be happy. It's just a game.

IV_Mark_VI wrote:I've invaded plenty, and I understand why some people look down on it.

Basically, they're the people that can't deal with an invasion. When I started, trying to coop, an invasion meant instant death unless I could get to the boss (unlikely being a new player) or I could summon someone for coop.

The comments "Just play offline or hallowed" I disagree with; I LIKE playing with friends. That's why I got this game; an action/zelda type RPG that you could coop.

Saying "just deal with being killed all the time"... well, that sucks. The game is hard enough, I had no idea where to farm humanity, I had a limited supply, my weapons "could" have been upgraded, but I didn't know where, and I didn't have great stats, weapon choices, knowledge of how to use it, etc, etc.

Invasion meant death. So why would I say, "oh well, its just part of the game instant death.". I didn't learn anything, except to run for it, to summon other people, or to disconnect. Those were my tools. Being unfamiliar with a level, usually meant #3.

So yeah, I look down on most invaders. When I invade, I have no issues with them defending themselves at all costs. It literally costs the invader nothing to invade, but costs the host humanity. Most good players, this isn't a big deal. But my first couple of playthroughs, humanity was a precious commodity that I ran out of constantly.

When I invade, I size up my opponent and test them. If they're a newbie, I may exit or if I'm feeling generous I may just let them kill me to get some more souls or fight with really sub par weapons and not backstab.

This game is really hard. And people want to play it online with other people. And easy kills aren't my thing; I'm not going to punish people that already have a hard time with this game and justify it with "its part of the game". I have some empathy for them, and try to guess what it feels to be them on the other end. I want everyone to be happy. It's just a game.

True story... Oh, and if you want to farm humanity, go the to tomb of gigants after getting the lordvessel. The babies drop humanity often.

reim0027 wrote:

Christoph wrote:

reim0027 wrote:As a dedicated invader, I try not to BS fish. However, when you are 3 vs 1, it is different. You need to reduce their numbers ASAP and they BS fish worse (imagine BS fish x3). So, yeah, I go for BS alot when I'm outnumbered. When it is 1 vs 1, that is different. I'll use BS as part of my strategy, but not as my sole strategy.

Will I BS fish? Sometimes, depending on my opponent's strategy. I'll also counter BS. Will I chain BS? Sometimes, again, depending on their strategy.

Try invading for a few times, you'll see what I mean. And, BS fishing is not limited solely to invaders. It is ubiquitous among PvP.

I just need to ask: Do you play Dks on console?

I play on PS3.

Ok. Then be happy, the patch will make constant BS fishing much more useless (even through it still does dmg)

AzureCrow wrote:Many thanks Viral I aim to spread the blight of knowledge

I honestly and wholeheartedly believe that the majority of players will do whatever they can to win regardless of an arbitrary covenant alliance, in reality poison is just a tool to pressure enemies and it appears your aforementioned wraith was rather adept however daggers can be sidestepped and dung pies roll around, unless your confident in your greatshield you should always roll wake up. His attacks reflect your play style as well, no amount of weapons or items will guarantee victory and you simply faced an opponent of higher skill.

On the note of lore the bonfires fuel the power of the gods and maintain their rule, however the gods are not omnipotent they are not immortal and most of all they are far from infallible, the only true god we face is a lonely son who twisted the shell of anor londo into a grand lie to inspire the faithful to sacrifice themselves in the name of a dead lord. The very bonfires that the faithful praise feed off their humanity and drive them hollow. They're divine plan for the chosen undead is simply to provide the greatest fuel for the fires since gwyn himself. This game does a beautiful job of feeding us pieces of the picture but they are not facts they are the knowledge of the characters who share it, some are blind passing on what they've been told other's sharing only what they want to be heard and a small few relinquishing their puzzle pieces in the hopes you'll get farther before you too go hollow.

I believe the core of the original argument is the mater of experience, as players gain experience we grow but we tend to forget the joys of those without an inner understanding of the game. Once we learn how to counter ever enemy and tackle every every boss the only challenge is to take that which we know and flood it with pvp creating challenges we couldn't possibly predict. The fact is innocent hosts are often unprepared and see the invader at an unfair advantage, but the hosts who are prepared for pvp are by definition farming. I believe the balance can only be found by each player rising to the occasion and fighting to preserve every piece of humanity as best they can.
If your host is threatened defend him, but if an invader feels ganked do what you can to give him a 1v1 if he runs off from a turtling host follow him, drop a humanity and duel away, but whatever you do never believe you are better than another player because of the rules you give yourself, you have no idea what they're trying to accomplish or how desperate they are.
That being said those who rely on tricks and deceit will never best experience.

This... This is what degradates discussion. Not only was the bulk of my post ignored, but a situation and question (simple mind you) that had to do with ethics was chalked up to me not having skill. I didn't even tell if I won my fight. This is why I refuse to share my opinions. i've already tried to get the mods to take note of this since it was instructed by a mod in a previous thread. Technically, no , he doesn't violate the forum rules, but his comments that come off disingenuous and snarky would provoke a fight. On top of this... No one has answered the damn question that would save the trouble of writing huge walls of text. No one has anything good to say. It boils down to "you can't win a fight 10 to 1 in the other guys favor, play offline or hollow" which is ****. I am 99% positive Fromdoft did not intend for fully decked out 20's to **** questers at the start of the game.