trolololololo

FruitPunchNinja wrote:yea wasn't my point, lol. I just meant both sides abuse those glitches, or in some cases just use overpowered gear(cause it's not always a glitch). Also what is so horrible about getting killed your first time going through the burg, especially if you turned human for w/e reason. It's a learning experience, and some people like myself actually enjoyed those moments.

The game is pretty challenging without the impositions glitched invaders make, especially to people who come in fresh, without any Demon's Souls experience. I've gotten a kick out of losing good fights, too, but never out of being unfairly dominated in a situation where game balance is against me.

New players will have their hands full with what the Burg and especially the Parish already provide, and since it's the first section of the game, it's an ideal point for teaching new players about different ways to handle situations in a reasonably contained environment. A regular invader is fine, but a glitched invader interrupts that learning experience by ensuring that there's no way around the challenge they provide.

New players already have to deal with hollows, the Taurus Demon, perhaps a couple of Black Knights, a dragon, rats, hollow knights, a Bernike knight, a Channeller and the Gargoyles.

And then Lautrec is going to cripple Firelink Shrine! So I think we can safely cut new players some slack and allow them to learn the way the game intends them to throughout the Burg and Parish. And certainly, the initial invasion orbs are placed at Firelink Shrine so any area is potentially viable for invasions. By the same token of intentional design, however, Burg invaders aren't meant to have upgraded weaponry, because that doesn't come until the end of the Parish.

Knight Alundil wrote:So if someone is doing it just to enjoy the game, and is trying to create a tough experience like you said all in the spirit of the game but a majority or minority of players on the receiving end don't appreciate it and it worsens their game experience he should be branded a bad guy and stop doing what he enjoys doing?

I know originally you kind of covered your entire opinion on this, so you don't need to continue debating if you can't be bothered

No worries, this is good stuff, and it is keeping me from working...

My thought is that if you want to do that, you cannot be stopped, but you may be labeled by some as a greifer, and you may be creating a bad experience for some players. That is why I think this is a continuum, depending on what exactly you are doing, you will have a larger or smaller percentage of peope that do not appreciate your actions. I think of it like this. 90% or more of people hate hackers that create nearly unbeatable characters. The majority of players find them annoying and would rather not see them in the game. A lesser percentage of people think the same about people that gank. A lesser percentage (than the original 90%) also think the same of people that invade in the early levels of the game with gear and leveled gear above what is considered typically available. Most likely a lesser percentage than each of those are annoyed by invaders in general. No one knows the exact percentages, so everything we are doing is as indivuals speaking for what we assume are larger groups of people that feel the same as us.

Your actions are creating a negative experience for some percentage of the players out there. What that percentage is, who knows. To you that percentage is small enough that you are OK with it.

Knight Alundil wrote:

Rynn wrote:Glitching and Griefing are sautered together at the joints. You can't speak of one and ignore the other.

I really, really disagree with this. You're basically saying every griefer is a glitcher. No way. Not a chance.

When you speak of glitching, why is glitching a bad thing?
Players use it to grief
When a player griefs, what makes them more effective, skill, or glitches?

You can't seperate the two, they are too relevant to each other. it doesn't matter that every griefer doesn't glitch, and every glitcher doesn't grief. Time and Time again in multiplayer games we've seen the most effecient griefing is generally assisted by glitches

Siegfried. wrote:The game is pretty challenging without the impositions glitched invaders make, especially to people who come in fresh, without any Demon's Souls experience. I've gotten a kick out of losing good fights, too, but never out of being unfairly dominated in a situation where game balance is against me.

New players will have their hands full with what the Burg and especially the Parish already provide, and since it's the first section of the game, it's an ideal for teaching new players about different ways to handle situations in a reasonably contained environment. A regular invader is fine, but a glitched invader interrupts that learning experience by ensuring that there's no way around the challenge they provide.

I came to Dark souls fresh with no prior souls experience and there was no difference between a glitched invader and an invader in the know when I started. Both would woop my *** without breaking a sweat.

New players already have to deal with hollows, the Taurus Demon, perhaps a couple of Black Knights, a dragon, rats, hollow knights, a Bernike knight, a Channeller and the Gargoyles.

And then Lautrec is going to cripple Firelink Shrine! So I think we can safely cut new players some slack and allow them to learn the way the game intends them to throughout the Burg and Parish.

You cant get invaded in the asylum. You can get invaded in the burg and parish. That's the way the game was designed and that's the way it was intended to be.

Most are though, typically when you run into the first they are the latter. It's not always the case but it is extremely common.

Darkmoon are intentionally designed so that they may invade sinners with an advantage.

The advantage intended for invaders is that in the level is on their side. So while a bit despicable, that's just using what is intended for them to use to their advantage. Similar to if a host uses estus, their intended advantage. A Darkmoon gains the benefit of a higher level, at the detraction that they can only invade sinners.

Rynn wrote:

Knight Alundil wrote:

Rynn wrote:Glitching and Griefing are sautered together at the joints. You can't speak of one and ignore the other.

I really, really disagree with this. You're basically saying every griefer is a glitcher. No way. Not a chance.

When you speak of glitching, why is glitching a bad thing?
Players use it to grief
When a player griefs, what makes them more effective, skill, or glitches?

You can't seperate the two, they are too relevant to each other. it doesn't matter that every griefer doesn't glitch, and every glitcher doesn't grief. Time and Time again in multiplayer games we've seen the most effecient griefing is generally assisted by glitches

People all over this forum put words in my mouth and it drives me crazy.

This is your opinion on why glitching is bad, not mine.

Well here's the thing, if you invade at low level with elemental weapon ext you invade up also. So think about how many high level players are dueling in both the undead burg and parish. You get those players 80% of the time if not more, not some new player with un upgraded gear. Especially since most people don't go human that early, or die from the mobs right after turning human. It's just not as big of an issue as you guys are making it out to be.

Also, how it was mentioned before that you learn nothing from just getting killed by some invader with overpowered gear. I disagree, you learn to not turn human unless absolutely necessary.

Knight Alundil wrote:

New players already have to deal with hollows, the Taurus Demon, perhaps a couple of Black Knights, a dragon, rats, hollow knights, a Bernike knight, a Channeller and the Gargoyles.

And then Lautrec is going to cripple Firelink Shrine! So I think we can safely cut new players some slack and allow them to learn the way the game intends them to throughout the Burg and Parish.

You cant get invaded in the asylum. You can get invaded in the burg and parish. That's the way the game was designed and that's the way it was intended to be.

I did note that, and invasions in the Burg and Parish are all well and good. But the issue here is glitched invasions, and thereby griefing. Not all invaders are griefers -- plenty just want some honest PvP fun. But the Burg and Parish aren't really appropriate areas for elemental weapons and all that business.

Tolvo wrote:Most are though, typically when you run into the first they are the latter. It's not always the case but it is extremely common.

Darkmoon are intentionally designed so that they may invade sinners with an advantage.

The advantage intended for invaders is that in the level is on their side. So while a bit despicable, that's just using what is intended for them to use to their advantage. Similar to if a host uses estus, their intended advantage. A Darkmoon gains the benefit of a higher level, at the detraction that they can only invade sinners.

You can get sin by leaving a covenant which opens you up to being invaded by darkmoons. This fact was much more obscure to me on my first playthrough than the idea of being invaded while human. I learned that pretty quick though I didn't learn til at least my second play through how sin actually worked.

This shows you're more likely to get invaded by a darkmoon unintentionally than you are to get invaded by anyone unintentionally.

Leaving a covenant causes Sin? In all of my time playing that has never happened to me.

I hope this isn't another one of those hidden minor differences between the consoles.

Siegfried. wrote:

Knight Alundil wrote:

New players already have to deal with hollows, the Taurus Demon, perhaps a couple of Black Knights, a dragon, rats, hollow knights, a Bernike knight, a Channeller and the Gargoyles.

And then Lautrec is going to cripple Firelink Shrine! So I think we can safely cut new players some slack and allow them to learn the way the game intends them to throughout the Burg and Parish.

You cant get invaded in the asylum. You can get invaded in the burg and parish. That's the way the game was designed and that's the way it was intended to be.

I did note that, and invasions in the Burg and Parish are all well and good. But the issue here is glitched invasions, and thereby griefing. Not all invaders are griefers -- plenty just want some honest PvP fun. But the Burg and Parish aren't really appropriate areas for elemental weapons and all that business.

If you're solely talking about people who glitch and invade low levels then cool. Im only talking about people with legit gear and characters.

Also what Fruitpunch said about what you learn is spot on.

Knight Alundil wrote:

Rynn wrote:

Knight Alundil wrote:

Rynn wrote:Glitching and Griefing are sautered together at the joints. You can't speak of one and ignore the other.

I really, really disagree with this. You're basically saying every griefer is a glitcher. No way. Not a chance.

When you speak of glitching, why is glitching a bad thing?
Players use it to grief
When a player griefs, what makes them more effective, skill, or glitches?

You can't seperate the two, they are too relevant to each other. it doesn't matter that every griefer doesn't glitch, and every glitcher doesn't grief. Time and Time again in multiplayer games we've seen the most effecient griefing is generally assisted by glitches

People all over this forum put words in my mouth and it drives me crazy.

This is your opinion on why glitching is bad, not mine.

i don't intend to place words in your mouth, i am stating generally, this is the -only- argument ever provided for why glitching is bad.

Tolvo wrote:Leaving a covenant causes Sin? In all of my time playing that has never happened to me.

I hope this isn't another one of those hidden minor differences between the consoles.

If you leave a covenant by just joining another one you get sin, if you leave by talking to Oswald then you get no sin.

Rynn wrote:

Knight Alundil wrote:

Rynn wrote:

Knight Alundil wrote:

Rynn wrote:Glitching and Griefing are sautered together at the joints. You can't speak of one and ignore the other.

I really, really disagree with this. You're basically saying every griefer is a glitcher. No way. Not a chance.

When you speak of glitching, why is glitching a bad thing?
Players use it to grief
When a player griefs, what makes them more effective, skill, or glitches?

You can't seperate the two, they are too relevant to each other. it doesn't matter that every griefer doesn't glitch, and every glitcher doesn't grief. Time and Time again in multiplayer games we've seen the most effecient griefing is generally assisted by glitches

People all over this forum put words in my mouth and it drives me crazy.

This is your opinion on why glitching is bad, not mine.

i don't intend to place words in your mouth, i am stating generally, this is the -only- argument ever provided for why glitching is bad.

Assuming you've spoken to everyone ever about glitching.

I dont like the idea of someone with a 120 character who is completely fine character, nothing glitched out like crazy endurance or HP and he fights me in a totally honorable way but he used the BB glitch to get all his items. Why should I play through the game each time I make a new character when these **** go around BB glitching everything and still acting all high and mighty like they fight honorably? No, you didn't play the game. You didn't do what it was designed for you to do. You cheated. You glitched your way to the end so you could be badass like my characters without putting in the time or effort. You can say anything you want about it saving time and you having better things to do and that's fine. But then you have to admit; You cheated.

That's never happened to me before Alundil, are you PS3 or Xbox? Rynn you know anything about this?

With regards to the darkmoons I'm pretty sure you only get invaded by them if you get indicted in to the book of the guilty. I'm not sure that regular npc slapping/covenant betrayal etc gets you into the book of the guilty

Ah I may be mistaken. I thought this was common knowledge as I found it out a loooong time ago. Someone clarify if i'm wrong then i'll go reread/repost a reply.

I know it bumps you down in rank within the covenant if you leave without Oswald, but from my understanding you don't gain sin from that. Though it has been a long time since I last played.

I might be wrong that's just the way I thought it worked, Online sin=online punishment I.E DMs / offline sin= offline punishment I.E npcs want to punch you in the face, you lose your covenant etc

Can anyone confirm appearing in the book after killing an NPC?

Edit: you right on that one Tolvo, it's the only way of leaving your cov without sinning

This is something we should really all know by now

I know I've tested these things before, I just can't remember the results.

Looks like i've missed the end of the disgussion here That is dissapointing =\

Tolvo wrote:That's never happened to me before Alundil, are you PS3 or Xbox? Rynn you know anything about this?

about what? I missed what's going on.

Peaceful Wollyhop wrote:Sorry if you don't like topic pirate, but it annoys me when people go out of their way to ruin someone else's game/playthrough. On my first playthrough of Dark Souls I was looked up in the burg by 2 guys who constantly invaded me and I couldn't do anything about it. I also was lured to hit the giant blacksmith and big hat logan. You said it's their right to do what they want as they paid for the game but what about other people who have paid for the game and have a miserable time because of griefers. I mean my friend traded in Dark Souls back to game because he couldn't get past the the first area due to invaders....(and the happy red dragon) -close rant-

Not to sound like a jerk, but you didn't have to hit the Giant or Logan. If the invader pulls that "hide behind the NPC" crap, you simply don't attack. Yeah, it's lame, and you might get killed after, but not having the Giant Blacksmith is a lot lamer.

Most griefers are probably 14 years old and just love winning THAT much. I feel bad for new players...

StockpileThomas wrote:

Peaceful Wollyhop wrote:Sorry if you don't like topic pirate, but it annoys me when people go out of their way to ruin someone else's game/playthrough. On my first playthrough of Dark Souls I was looked up in the burg by 2 guys who constantly invaded me and I couldn't do anything about it. I also was lured to hit the giant blacksmith and big hat logan. You said it's their right to do what they want as they paid for the game but what about other people who have paid for the game and have a miserable time because of griefers. I mean my friend traded in Dark Souls back to game because he couldn't get past the the first area due to invaders....(and the happy red dragon) -close rant-

Not to sound like a jerk, but you didn't have to hit the Giant or Logan. If the invader pulls that "hide behind the NPC" crap, you simply don't attack. Yeah, it's lame, and you might get killed after, but not having the Giant Blacksmith is a lot lamer.

Most griefers are probably 14 years old and just love winning THAT much. I feel bad for new players...

Why assume they're immature and just want wins? That is kind of an ignorant assumption. Have you ever invaded somebody and killed them when they were trying to complete the area? It's basically the same thing. He wants to grind your gears, he wants to piss you off. If you're stupid enough to fall for it then it's your own damn fault. It's a simple wait it out counter or just go to the damn boss... This topic has gone much to long because it's a simple matter of.. Quit crying and don't be so stupid to attack the NPC.. if you ARE stupid enough to attack or kill the NPC.. then either resolve your sins (if you didn't kill the NPC) or just suck it up and finish the game and get back there. If it bothers people THAT much to get invaded and greifed by players than STOP GOING HUMAN. It's a choice to run into players who enjoy trolling, it's your own damn fault if it happens to you, new player or not.. This thread should just die where it is..