trolololololo

ssss_2_is_pwnage wrote:

StockpileThomas wrote:

Peaceful Wollyhop wrote:Sorry if you don't like topic pirate, but it annoys me when people go out of their way to ruin someone else's game/playthrough. On my first playthrough of Dark Souls I was looked up in the burg by 2 guys who constantly invaded me and I couldn't do anything about it. I also was lured to hit the giant blacksmith and big hat logan. You said it's their right to do what they want as they paid for the game but what about other people who have paid for the game and have a miserable time because of griefers. I mean my friend traded in Dark Souls back to game because he couldn't get past the the first area due to invaders....(and the happy red dragon) -close rant-

Not to sound like a jerk, but you didn't have to hit the Giant or Logan. If the invader pulls that "hide behind the NPC" crap, you simply don't attack. Yeah, it's lame, and you might get killed after, but not having the Giant Blacksmith is a lot lamer.

Most griefers are probably 14 years old and just love winning THAT much. I feel bad for new players...

Why assume they're immature and just want wins? That is kind of an ignorant assumption. Have you ever invaded somebody and killed them when they were trying to complete the area? It's basically the same thing. He wants to grind your gears, he wants to piss you off. If you're stupid enough to fall for it then it's your own damn fault. It's a simple wait it out counter or just go to the damn boss... This topic has gone much to long because it's a simple matter of.. Quit crying and don't be so stupid to attack the NPC.. if you ARE stupid enough to attack or kill the NPC.. then either resolve your sins (if you didn't kill the NPC) or just suck it up and finish the game and get back there. If it bothers people THAT much to get invaded and greifed by players than STOP GOING HUMAN. It's a choice to run into players who enjoy trolling, it's your own damn fault if it happens to you, new player or not.. This thread should just die where it is..

Haha. Yeah. It should die.

I think that's a load of tosh, pwnage. You shouldn't blame people for the actions of others.

Pwnage is basically mapping out the some of the base systems for dark souls and you're all saying he's wrong.

Siegfried. wrote:I think that's a load of tosh, pwnage. You shouldn't blame people for the actions of others.

I'm blaming the invaded, for being stupid enough to attack the NPC. The invader can be a troll and goes "Lemme hide behind the NPC heh heh heh " but you don't have to attack it. When somebody does that I agro NPCs and back off then do the sins thing to get them back.. but i'm not blaming the invaded for what the black phantom did. I'm invading them for what THEY did by attacking the NPC. It's pretty obvious it's their own fault.. since the black phantom can't attack the NPC themselves.... It's just like the dumbasses who hide behind mimics. I don't approve of the tactics but people do what they do. It's part of the game so it's perfectly allowed gameplay, whether or not it's kind, it's Dark Souls. It's common sense to say "Well if I slash this guy in the face with my sword.. he won't like it.. so let me back off or move ahead"..

Well if you stopped posting then the thread would 'die' you (pwnage) and stockpile thomas kinda reanimated it, I thought we had already nailed the topic on the head....

One time I was hosting in Anor Londo, and an invader did that. I had a phantom with me, so he went after the guy, and I shot arrows in his back without aggravating the giant blacksmith. Good times.

Wasn't ganking at first, but he ran and hid so... had to get that tick out of there.

IV_Mark_VI wrote:One time I was hosting in Anor Londo, and an invader did that. I had a phantom with me, so he went after the guy, and I shot arrows in his back without aggravating the giant blacksmith. Good times.

Wasn't ganking at first, but he ran and hid so... had to get that tick out of there.

Only way to kill a tick is burn it, you should have used fire arrows

ssss_2_is_pwnage wrote:

Siegfried. wrote:I think that's a load of tosh, pwnage. You shouldn't blame people for the actions of others.

I'm blaming the invaded, for being stupid enough to attack the NPC. The invader can be a troll and goes "Lemme hide behind the NPC heh heh heh " but you don't have to attack it. When somebody does that I agro NPCs and back off then do the sins thing to get them back.. but i'm not blaming the invaded for what the black phantom did. I'm invading them for what THEY did by attacking the NPC. It's pretty obvious it's their own fault.. since the black phantom can't attack the NPC themselves.... It's just like the dumbasses who hide behind mimics. I don't approve of the tactics but people do what they do. It's part of the game so it's perfectly allowed gameplay, whether or not it's kind, it's Dark Souls. It's common sense to say "Well if I slash this guy in the face with my sword.. he won't like it.. so let me back off or move ahead"..

The host might have pressed the button, but it's certainly the intent of the invader that an NPC be struck. If you're fighting in the general vicinity of an NPC and hit them, fair call -- it's your fault. But if an invader is intentionally manipulating you into hitting an NPC, it's on them because it wouldn't have happened otherwise.

I mean, look, you don't criticise someone who had their car jacked for parking in a bad area, do you? That simply justifies the behaviour of the one at blame. Exactly like this scenario; putting blame on an invaded host for an invader's ploy legitimises griefing invader tactics.

The bottom line here is that an invader can set out to make a host attack an NPC and it would not have happened without their influence. Blaming a host running through the game without intentions of ganking is silly.

After all, manipulating a host into attacking an NPC is purely an act of malice. The invader doesn't get anything out of it, except perhaps a temporary advantage while the host deals with the NPC. But that NPC is then gone for the entire playthrough and the invader gets no benefit from that.

Might use it to hide/heal as a retreat point. But that's really damn annoying.

Siegfried. wrote:

ssss_2_is_pwnage wrote:

Siegfried. wrote:I think that's a load of tosh, pwnage. You shouldn't blame people for the actions of others.

I'm blaming the invaded, for being stupid enough to attack the NPC. The invader can be a troll and goes "Lemme hide behind the NPC heh heh heh " but you don't have to attack it. When somebody does that I agro NPCs and back off then do the sins thing to get them back.. but i'm not blaming the invaded for what the black phantom did. I'm invading them for what THEY did by attacking the NPC. It's pretty obvious it's their own fault.. since the black phantom can't attack the NPC themselves.... It's just like the dumbasses who hide behind mimics. I don't approve of the tactics but people do what they do. It's part of the game so it's perfectly allowed gameplay, whether or not it's kind, it's Dark Souls. It's common sense to say "Well if I slash this guy in the face with my sword.. he won't like it.. so let me back off or move ahead"..

The host might have pressed the button, but it's certainly the intent of the invader that an NPC be struck. If you're fighting in the general vicinity of an NPC and hit them, fair call -- it's your fault. But if an invader is intentionally manipulating you into hitting an NPC, it's on them because it wouldn't have happened otherwise.

I mean, look, you don't criticise someone who had their car jacked for parking in a bad area, do you? That simply justifies the behaviour of the one at blame. Exactly like this scenario; putting blame on an invaded host for an invader's ploy legitimises griefing invader tactics.

The bottom line here is that an invader can set out to make a host attack an NPC and it would not have happened without their influence. Blaming a host running through the game without intentions of ganking is silly.

After all, manipulating a host into attacking an NPC is purely an act of malice. The invader doesn't get anything out of it, except perhaps a temporary advantage while the host deals with the NPC. But that NPC is then gone for the entire playthrough and the invader gets no benefit from that.

If he knew that his car would be jacked if he parked in the damn area then yes I would..... Dude, you don't have the click the button, the invader can't pick your character up and drop him onto the NPC to aggro him.. he can walk by him and thats when you just walk the other way or goat him away.. If your just running around slashing your sword everywhere like a tryhard and he lures you into the NPC you still deserve it.. It's part of the game.. to greif dude.. there is no argueing that fact.. if you put your controller down and the button clicks and now the NPC is mad, it's not your fault.. if you attack it because you were STUPID enough to follow an invade than it's your own fault. Simple. Not attacking in front of an NPC is common sense of Dark Souls. If you do it, regardless of what the invader is doing, IT'S YOUR OWN DAMN FAULT. Why don't people get this? It's obvious.. He can't FORCE you to attack him, you can only attack him out of pure STUPIDITY or IGNORANCE. Which both = YOUR FAULT.

Let me give you an example:

My brother was invaded in the Catacombs, but couldn't find the invader. He goes up to Patches' platform in order to get a better look around, and lo and behold, a vase starts moving. He's pretty surprised by this, and attacks out of reflex and instinct, hitting Patches in the process.

This isn't such a big deal. It's only Patches, and Patches is a bastard anyway. But it illustrates how a sudden shock or surprise can cause someone to instinctively take an action. In this case, it was the invader's intent. A lot of the time, that's what combat is like -- when an opportunity presents itself, thinking too hard can let it pass. You can only trust people to act or not to act in those moments of surprise rather than to think.

This isn't stupidity or ignorance -- just a natural human reaction to the sudden appearance of a threatening stimulus. It's very clever for an invader to take advantage of that, but that just means they intentionally used that to their advantage and created that scenario.

Realistically, we both know invaders don't just stand besides NPCs waiting to take a hit. They use chameleon or bait an attack that's difficult to control. If they can bait an area of effect spell, all the better, because their ranges are often ambiguous or inconsistent (such as pyromancy AoEs). No-one attacks an invader simply standing beside an NPC -- the invader has to intentionally make it both necessary and viable to be attacked when in that position. That means they have to both provide a threat and an opening, forcing the host to defend themselves.

So an invader moved while being a vase which forced your brother to attack without patience, a key element in dark souls we can all attest to, and he aggro'd patches. You blame the invader for that. I'm sure I can find a thread or something somewhere where you've commented saying patience is important in dark souls.

Ok how about this then, I said earlier that I agro'd logan and the giant blacksmith in my first playthrough. I obviously didn't go ah theres an invader behind him, lets attack anyway! When I was in anor londo i just got the dragon greatbow and dropped down to where the giant is, I didn't know he was there of course, but I followed him to the giant and started casting firestorm as I walked around the corner and I saw the giant and kinda haad a second whre I knew what was gonna happen the giant started attacking me and I killed him as I knew he wasn't gonna stop attacking me. It was my first playthough so I didn't know that you could leave and they would reset. I wouldn't count that as my own dam fault.

Peaceful Wollyhop wrote:Ok how about this then, I said earlier that I agro'd logan and the giant blacksmith in my first playthrough. I obviously didn't go ah theres an invader behind him, lets attack anyway! When I was in anor londo i just got the dragon greatbow and dropped down to where the giant is, I didn't know he was there of course, but I followed him to the giant and started casting firestorm as I walked around the corner and I saw the giant and kinda haad a second whre I knew what was gonna happen the giant started attacking me and I killed him as I knew he wasn't gonna stop attacking me. It was my first playthough so I didn't know that you could leave and they would reset. I wouldn't count that as my own dam fault.

Dark souls was a brutal learning experience for everyone. I destroyed characters learning things. I would say that was just part of your learning experience.

While all griefers have different reasons to grief, i would assume a big majority of the griefers are nothing more than ''assholes'' who get the enjoyment of irritating others. I actually don't think a lot of players that grief are necessarily bad players at this game, in fact i believe a lot of them could possibly be skilled(not all though, maybe 50-50, idk). That of course, doesn't mean i would agree with what they're doing.

Knight Alundil wrote:So an invader moved while being a vase which forced your brother to attack without patience, a key element in dark souls we can all attest to, and he aggro'd patches. You blame the invader for that. I'm sure I can find a thread or something somewhere where you've commented saying patience is important in dark souls.

Patience is certainly important. But as you get better at the game, you realise that taking advantage of openings is just as necessary, especially after mastering the poise system. At this stage, you understand that an initial, poise-breaking strike will prevent them from acting for a moment, which is better than blocking.

So it becomes instinctual to try and get the first attack. I know it has for me and others. I'm pretty sure everyone was a shield turtler when they started, but that's one playstyle amongst many, and plenty of us have trained ourselves out of allowing enemies to take initiative.

Siegfried. wrote:Let me give you an example:

My brother was invaded in the Catacombs, but couldn't find the invader. He goes up to Patches' platform in order to get a better look around, and lo and behold, a vase starts moving. He's pretty surprised by this, and attacks out of reflex and instinct, hitting Patches in the process.

This isn't such a big deal. It's only Patches, and Patches is a bastard anyway. But it illustrates how a sudden shock or surprise can cause someone to instinctively take an action. In this case, it was the invader's intent. A lot of the time, that's what combat is like -- when an opportunity presents itself, thinking too hard can let it pass. You can only trust people to act or not to act in those moments of surprise rather than to think.

This isn't stupidity or ignorance -- just a natural human reaction to the sudden appearance of a threatening stimulus. It's very clever for an invader to take advantage of that, but that just means they intentionally used that to their advantage and created that scenario.

Realistically, we both know invaders don't just stand besides NPCs waiting to take a hit. They use chameleon or bait an attack that's difficult to control. If they can bait an area of effect spell, all the better, because their ranges are often ambiguous or inconsistent (such as pyromancy AoEs). No-one attacks an invader simply standing beside an NPC -- the invader has to intentionally make it both necessary and viable to be attacked when in that position. That means they have to both provide a threat and an opening, forcing the host to defend themselves.

Your own fault. You attacked out of fright, i've never been scared by an invader any time I played (all human first playthrough). I've had chameleoners and greifers try and get me to attack NPCs but i've never been scared by it. If you can't control yourself it's your own fault.

Siegfried. wrote:

Knight Alundil wrote:So an invader moved while being a vase which forced your brother to attack without patience, a key element in dark souls we can all attest to, and he aggro'd patches. You blame the invader for that. I'm sure I can find a thread or something somewhere where you've commented saying patience is important in dark souls.

Patience is certainly important. But as you get better at the game, you realise that taking advantage of openings is just as necessary, especially after mastering the poise system. At this stage, you understand that an initial, poise-breaking strike will prevent them from acting for a moment, which is better than blocking.

So it becomes instinctual to try and get the first attack. I know it has for me and others. I'm pretty sure everyone was a shield turtler when they started, but that's one playstyle amongst many, and plenty of us have trained ourselves out of allowing enemies to take initiative.

Exactly. So you agree with me.

I think I'll have to side with Alundil on this one. Sure its annoying but I think we are getting more complaints/ threads like this because there is such and new and diverse aspect to the Souls community. I remember people griefing me in DeS and to me that was infuriating but I soon learnt that being too hasty was a bad thing that people could exploit, and being too defense left me open to being steam rolled.

In the end yes on your first play throughs you learn and get punished by the game and in this way by the community. If you didnt trash your first toon at about SL 67-90 I would think you are doing something wrong.... no proper toon able to fight well in pvp is built first try.

Anywho frankly griefing is a different style of play from those duelists who bow and fight to thier own rules then go off at you when you beat them and one that add a refreshing if not slightly irritating perspective.

I don't think there's anything more to be said in this thread. Unless anyone posts anything else that gives new direction to the thread then I think I'm going to go ahead and lock the thread in the morning.

Yeah all sides have pretty much been presented, perhaps it should end while things are still good and civil. While I disagree with some sides in this thread, I'm proud of everyone for keeping this nice and friendly.

I just think that when people start a thread like this they are expecting a large concensus with thier persective and are unwilling to change thier opinions on the matter.

This has happened with other threads where people have all presneted their cases strongly and logically, then passionately.... and all have been unflexible in accepting the oppositions case.

Yes it is better to close this thread.

Do you think I should do it right now or give it a bit of time incase some people want a final word in ?

I think it would be better to leave it open. Everyone should have an opportunity to have their say. But of course I can understand if you want to close it.

Thanks for the lively debate everyone btw.

It is alsways healthy to have a good debate. I am heading to bed anywho, and I most likely will not be on until around 4 (UK time) tomorrow so the thread will be open til at least then : ) Goodnight!