Ornstein possibly an illusion?

Alright, when I first fought Ornstein and Smough, they were way tougher for me than when I first fought Artorias. Of course, when you fight them with the same equipment, Soul Level and so on, Artorias is a beast. That may just be the games progressive difficulty and not a plot point.

But on to the plot relevance, well Ornstein may seem weak, but let's not forget his specialty is dragonslaying.

Also let's look at the implications of both scenarios.

If Ornstein is an illusion, then he was created by Gwyndolin. Why would Gwyndolin pick Ornstein in particular? Why not Artorias, or why not all Four Knights?

If Ornstein is real, then he must either be going along with Gwyndolins plan and therefore is working with Frampt to preserve the Age of Fire, or he is also being fooled by Gwyndolin just like the Chosen Undead is.

My theory is that Ornstein is real. For one, if that isn't the real Ornstein, then where the hell is he? He'd be the only one of the Four Knights unaccounted for that was an illusion. Two, Ornstein is very likely to cooperate with Frampt and Gwyndolin on their quest to perpetuate the Age of Fire, which is what his Lord, Lord Gwyn would have wanted of him. Lastly, if Ornstein is an illusion, than how did Gwyndolin get a hold of the Leo Ring?

I liked the theory that Ornstein(like Gough) is just really really old and way past his prime.

LickMyManus wrote:Alright, when I first fought Ornstein and Smough, they were way tougher for me than when I first fought Artorias. Of course, when you fight them with the same equipment, Soul Level and so on, Artorias is a beast. That may just be the games progressive difficulty and not a plot point.

But on to the plot relevance, well Ornstein may seem weak, but let's not forget his specialty is dragonslaying.

Also let's look at the implications of both scenarios.

If Ornstein is an illusion, then he was created by Gwyndolin. Why would Gwyndolin pick Ornstein in particular? Why not Artorias, or why not all Four Knights?

If Ornstein is real, then he must either be going along with Gwyndolins plan and therefore is working with Frampt to preserve the Age of Fire, or he is also being fooled by Gwyndolin just like the Chosen Undead is.

My theory is that Ornstein is real. For one, if that isn't the real Ornstein, then where the hell is he? He'd be the only one of the Four Knights unaccounted for that was an illusion. Two, Ornstein is very likely to cooperate with Frampt and Gwyndolin on their quest to perpetuate the Age of Fire, which is what his Lord, Lord Gwyn would have wanted of him. Lastly, if Ornstein is an illusion, than how did Gwyndolin get a hold of the Leo Ring?

But if he goes along with gwyndolins plan then why does he attack the player? Surely he must know that the only way for you to prove you're the chosen undead is to kill him. Why not just let Smough handle it on his own? my guess is he wasn't in on the plan.

It's strange that all the four knights of Gwyn have a contradiction within themselves.

Ornstein the leader of the knights was staying aone probably in anor londo while the others went to oolacile. he wasn't leading at all.. in fact he did nothinig.

Artorias haad an unbendable will of steel yet he is the one to get controlled by the darkness of the abyss.

The wise hawkeye Gough believes himself to be blind eventhough his helmet is just packed with resin.

and Ciaran Gwyns assasin doesnt take action against you when you refuse to give her friends soul to her.

i noe im late to this discussion but Ornstein cant be and illusion the fact that when you hit him you see blood come out has to be for something. the SK dont bleed when you hit them you get that dust particle effect. you can also bleed out Ornstein(to an extent) and you see blood then too. The SKs cant be bleed because of the illusion. Thats what i think n Arty is better^_^(sorry)

Not a single reason for us to believe Ornstein is an illusion. If we assume Ornstein is an illusion, we can assume anything is an illusion, really.

I'm pretty sure it's not an illusion when he impales you on his spear and toasts the **** out of you with his lightning....

Gameplay aside, i think one of the knights had to stay in Anor Londo, to protect the princess or the city and lead the silver knights, while the other 3 knights went to Oolacile. Besides, he drops his soul, and Domhall recovers his armor; i don't think he could have done that if O&S were illusions.

I picked the wrong answer because the title and the question are different :evil:

Ace Windu wrote:I picked the wrong answer because the title and the question are different :evil:

derp i just realized i did the same.

Back to topic, i dont even doubt Ornstein is real. He's been the princess bodyguard with Smough for hundred of years, his days of glorious dragon hunting are over. Hes obviously not at his strongest moment. And btw it would be evern worse if from made Ornstein even more powerful.

If the Ornstein you fight in Anor Londo was an illusion. That would mean that the real Orns fled with Gwynevere. But that is not the case, since the spear you create with his soul says: "Cross spear born from the soul of Ornstein" so I do believe he was being fooled by Gwyndolin and was protecting an illusion.

The fact that he is "weak" does not suppot the theory of him being an illusion. And I personally don't really believe him to be weak, and like some said, is just quite old, since he fought the dragons with Gwyn, and past his glory days.

It's possible the Ornstein wasn't being fooled by Gwyndolin. He could very well be a Threshold Gaurdian, he's their to test how worthy you are of the Lord Vessel. If you can't get through him then you may as well quit.

The fact that he is on the upper level when you arrive leads me to believe he is the one who closes the door to try and "hide" the princess from you. That is, of course, my interpretation of that particular event '-'

The gods dipped. They know the age of fire will die, and with that their power; therefore, they are enjoying what time they have left. Gwyn like you is undead, however he has gone hollow(lost his mind) and so the fire will die the next time hes does(at least I think anyone killed while hollow stays dead)

I believe that that is why Ornstein tests you. Only someone with the will to endure is strong enough to replace Gwyn. If some random guy kindled the flame, then they would hollow pretty fast and is therefore useless to them. Specifically, they need someone with a strong will.

Gwynevere is an illusion created by Gwyndolin. He wants you to kindle the flame because that's what his father wantd. By having you replace Gwyn, he's following Gwyn's will. As the last God in Anor Londo, it would also put him in charge.

Does any of that make sense to you?

Yes it does,thank you.....

If he was illusion why can he hurt you?

Samurainova wrote:If he was illusion why can he hurt you?

Sentinels can hurt you too

Hachouma wrote:

Samurainova wrote:If he was illusion why can he hurt you?

Sentinels can hurt you too

As can the fake Pinwheels

Sloth9230 wrote:

Hachouma wrote:

Samurainova wrote:If he was illusion why can he hurt you?

Sentinels can hurt you too

As can the fake Pinwheels

If he's an illusion why can you hurt him?

Samurainova wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:

Hachouma wrote:

Samurainova wrote:If he was illusion why can he hurt you?

Sentinels can hurt you too

As can the fake Pinwheels

If he's an illusion why can you hurt him?

Whats your Point ?
Why shouldnt Illusions be able to hurt or get hurt ?

Samurainova wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:

Hachouma wrote:

Samurainova wrote:If he was illusion why can he hurt you?

Sentinels can hurt you too

As can the fake Pinwheels

If he's an illusion why can you hurt him?

:roll:

Sloth9230 wrote:

Samurainova wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:

Hachouma wrote:

Samurainova wrote:If he was illusion why can he hurt you?

Sentinels can hurt you too

As can the fake Pinwheels

If he's an illusion why can you hurt him?

:roll:

Why did you bold sentinels?

He asked why we can hurt Ornstein, for the same reason we can hurt Sentinels.

Personally, I think Ornstein is real; however, there isn't any real evidence for either side being right or wrong.

Actually there is .
We get the Soul of Ornstein .
With every other Boss in the Game we get the Soul of it .

But you could also argue the other way around so...yeah . I still think it's more likely that Orn is real .

Ornstein's Soul could just be a fake soul, which would make the DSS a fake as well. It could very well be the soul of some random person, we've seen that you don't need someones actual soul in order form their specific weapons i.e. the "Soul of Sif" makes replicas of Artorias sword/shield, not the actual weapons. Despite that, the replicas behave as the real ones would. It's possible that Sif's bond with Artorias makes his replicas special, but I wouldn't really know.

Then again... Sif had his own sword as cub, which somehow grew as he did... the whole thing makes no sense.

Also, both Sentiels and Bat Demons also drop items despite being illusions.

There's nothing really conclusive.

The thing that makes me think O is real is that he absorbs S's power. If they were illusions then the Gwyndolin could have just focused more power into O without the need for direct contact between them, which leads to me believe that it really is O taking S's power.

The cutecene also implies that they're corpse's are still around, we just can't see them.