Would you accept a Pistol if....

Slarg232 wrote:

DemonOfFate wrote: I must agree, you are the only person who has managed to convince me something like this could possibly work. Well done mate.

I'm just glad there are a few people on here that can see reason
@ Reacor: How does it not fit? Please tell me why specifically, as I can't quite seem to stab at it in the dark.
And it's not like including a Flintlock Pistol (Or similar) would turn it into Dark Souls: Black Ops 3

from what i have seen the universe as a whole is unevolving. aka as a whole tech is the same, god a crossbow that can shoot 3 times is considered the pinical of craftsmanship. a gun of any-kind is a HUGE jump, as in an age changing jump. then we would get cannons, dynamite and eventually automatic guns (one you start and evolving system it would be terrible not to let it fun) in the next games untill the souls games are no longer souls games but some metro game.

raecor14 wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

DemonOfFate wrote: I must agree, you are the only person who has managed to convince me something like this could possibly work. Well done mate.

I'm just glad there are a few people on here that can see reason
@ Reacor: How does it not fit? Please tell me why specifically, as I can't quite seem to stab at it in the dark.
And it's not like including a Flintlock Pistol (Or similar) would turn it into Dark Souls: Black Ops 3

from what i have seen the universe as a whole is unevolving. aka as a whole tech is the same, god a crossbow that can shoot 3 times is considered the pinical of craftsmanship. a gun of any-kind is a HUGE jump, as in an age changing jump. then we would get cannons, dynamite and eventually automatic guns (one you start and evolving system it would be terrible not to let it fun) in the next games untill the souls games are no longer souls games but some metro game.

While good points (Though you say some Metro Game like Metro 2033 is a bad game >.>), but allow me to counterpoint:
While we do not know of we are dealing with a sequal or prequal, what we do know is this: the flow of time in Lordran is distorted, that's why we can summon other "Chosen Undeads" into our world, and I would imagine why the tech is 'slowly devolving'; it's not, it's just that we are connected into more pre-times than post-times.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that we don't know for sure that this game is going to be set in Lordran (They have said it won't, but let's all remember the Pendant for a moment.) A Blackpowder Pistol could just be from the future in one of those time pockets.
But let's suppose it isn't set in Lordran. Same theory; the pistol is from a Post Time and an undead picks it up, goes hollow. Chosen Undead kills him, wonders what it is, and pockets it. This "Chosen" undead has no interest in being such though; he wants to get home and see his family. So he flees Lordran (If the Gods can do it, so can a very tenacious Chosen Undead), returns to wherever the game is set, sees his family and hollows. Along comes PC, kills him, takes the pistol.

It doesn't have to be an escalating thing, it would just be nice to be able to role play a Pirate with an actual pistol

Actually, angry Haunter briefly touched on an important point (but kind of lost it).

The Souls universe is constantly slipping. Digressing. Devolving. That's part of what defines the atmosphere and setting. Guns indicate an advance in technology. Technology is hope and light. Souls is darkness and despair.

DE5PA1R wrote:Actually, angry Haunter briefly touched on an important point (but kind of lost it).

The Souls universe is constantly slipping. Digressing. Devolving. That's part of what defines the atmosphere and setting. Guns indicate an advance in technology. Technology is hope and light. Souls is darkness and despair.

And in the post not two posts above yours, I already addressed that point

Slarg232 wrote:

raecor14 wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

DemonOfFate wrote: I must agree, you are the only person who has managed to convince me something like this could possibly work. Well done mate.

I'm just glad there are a few people on here that can see reason
@ Reacor: How does it not fit? Please tell me why specifically, as I can't quite seem to stab at it in the dark.
And it's not like including a Flintlock Pistol (Or similar) would turn it into Dark Souls: Black Ops 3

from what i have seen the universe as a whole is unevolving. aka as a whole tech is the same, god a crossbow that can shoot 3 times is considered the pinical of craftsmanship. a gun of any-kind is a HUGE jump, as in an age changing jump. then we would get cannons, dynamite and eventually automatic guns (one you start and evolving system it would be terrible not to let it fun) in the next games untill the souls games are no longer souls games but some metro game.

While good points (Though you say some Metro Game like Metro 2033 is a bad game >.>), but allow me to counterpoint:
While we do not know of we are dealing with a sequal or prequal, what we do know is this: the flow of time in Lordran is distorted, that's why we can summon other "Chosen Undeads" into our world, and I would imagine why the tech is 'slowly devolving'; it's not, it's just that we are connected into more pre-times than post-times.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that we don't know for sure that this game is going to be set in Lordran (They have said it won't, but let's all remember the Pendant for a moment.) A Blackpowder Pistol could just be from the future in one of those time pockets.
But let's suppose it isn't set in Lordran. Same theory; the pistol is from a Post Time and an undead picks it up, goes hollow. Chosen Undead kills him, wonders what it is, and pockets it. This "Chosen" undead has no interest in being such though; he wants to get home and see his family. So he flees Lordran (If the Gods can do it, so can a very tenacious Chosen Undead), returns to wherever the game is set, sees his family and hollows. Along comes PC, kills him, takes the pistol.

It doesn't have to be an escalating thing, it would just be nice to be able to role play a Pirate with an actual pistol

never have played a metro game, i just know they are sifi but my point is if you chosen undead can do that, whats stopping them from finding someone who dropped a machine gin, a plasma rifle or even a satellite beam controller as ridiculous as it sounds all these fit into that logic, meaning that the games will have to have a tech boost throughout the games meaning sooner or later we will be in metro 2033 souls edition,

raecor14 wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

raecor14 wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

DemonOfFate wrote: I must agree, you are the only person who has managed to convince me something like this could possibly work. Well done mate.

I'm just glad there are a few people on here that can see reason
@ Reacor: How does it not fit? Please tell me why specifically, as I can't quite seem to stab at it in the dark.
And it's not like including a Flintlock Pistol (Or similar) would turn it into Dark Souls: Black Ops 3

from what i have seen the universe as a whole is unevolving. aka as a whole tech is the same, god a crossbow that can shoot 3 times is considered the pinical of craftsmanship. a gun of any-kind is a HUGE jump, as in an age changing jump. then we would get cannons, dynamite and eventually automatic guns (one you start and evolving system it would be terrible not to let it fun) in the next games untill the souls games are no longer souls games but some metro game.

While good points (Though you say some Metro Game like Metro 2033 is a bad game >.>), but allow me to counterpoint:
While we do not know of we are dealing with a sequal or prequal, what we do know is this: the flow of time in Lordran is distorted, that's why we can summon other "Chosen Undeads" into our world, and I would imagine why the tech is 'slowly devolving'; it's not, it's just that we are connected into more pre-times than post-times.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that we don't know for sure that this game is going to be set in Lordran (They have said it won't, but let's all remember the Pendant for a moment.) A Blackpowder Pistol could just be from the future in one of those time pockets.
But let's suppose it isn't set in Lordran. Same theory; the pistol is from a Post Time and an undead picks it up, goes hollow. Chosen Undead kills him, wonders what it is, and pockets it. This "Chosen" undead has no interest in being such though; he wants to get home and see his family. So he flees Lordran (If the Gods can do it, so can a very tenacious Chosen Undead), returns to wherever the game is set, sees his family and hollows. Along comes PC, kills him, takes the pistol.

It doesn't have to be an escalating thing, it would just be nice to be able to role play a Pirate with an actual pistol

never have played a metro game, i just know they are sifi but my point is if you chosen undead can do that, whats stopping them from finding someone who dropped a machine gin, a plasma rifle or even a satellite beam controller as ridiculous as it sounds all these fit into that logic, meaning that the games will have to have a tech boost throughout the games meaning sooner or later we will be in metro 2033 souls edition,

Not necessarily

It's all to do with where From wants it; Gears of War, for instance, has people powering machines on molten lava and giant death star mega-lazors, but all of their guns still use slugs or even exploding arrows
Fallout has lazors and palasma, and nuclear powered cars, but is still stuck in 1950s when it comes to culture and appearances

Slarg232 wrote:

DE5PA1R wrote:Actually, angry Haunter briefly touched on an important point (but kind of lost it).

The Souls universe is constantly slipping. Digressing. Devolving. That's part of what defines the atmosphere and setting. Guns indicate an advance in technology. Technology is hope and light. Souls is darkness and despair.

And in the post not two posts above yours, I already addressed that point

You've addressed mechanics, but not theme. Sure we can explain how it would work, but I'm much more concerned about the atmosphere and how the games feel.

but the souls games are fun because it is a whole choose your attack type kind of game. magic pyro accompanied by melee. guns would wreck this. an instant attack that has high damage, reminds me of WOG without the ability to dodge.

raecor14 wrote:but the souls games are fun because it is a whole choose your attack type kind of game. magic pyro accompanied by melee. guns would wreck this. an instant attack that has high damage, reminds me of WOG without the ability to dodge.

Ok, so what if the pistol did crap shoot for damage (100 unscaling peircing damage (yes, Leo Ring Equiv works with it), But let's say it drains HUGE stamina from the target if blocked. Because let's face it, Spear Turtlers need something else to counter them a bit more.


I actually did address theme, Despair. A pistol would fit the theme of Dark Souls 2 by what I have in that post.

Slarg232 wrote:
I actually did address theme, Despair. A pistol would fit the theme of Dark Souls 2 by what I have in that post.

No. Like I said, Souls is about devolution and digress. Pistols represent evolution and progress.

I'll take a jump button before I take guns in the game.

Also people have forgotten to talk about clockwork pistols, which were intricately made flintlock pistols that were extremely fragile and prone to misfires. Also hand cannons. Primitive muzzle loading hand cannons. And the blunderbuss because if they're doing black powder guns you need the blunderbuss.


Also no one play Two Worlds Two. Yes there is a pirate dlc but that game will be the biggest waste of life you've ever seen. Its literally the worst game ever. Not really but I'm still bitter about ever playing it.

DE5PA1R wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:
I actually did address theme, Despair. A pistol would fit the theme of Dark Souls 2 by what I have in that post.

No. Like I said, Souls is about devolution and digress. Pistols represent evolution and progress.

So does the Evelyn, Crystal Magic, and the Dragon Covenant, but they are still in the game.

Slarg232 wrote:

DE5PA1R wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:
I actually did address theme, Despair. A pistol would fit the theme of Dark Souls 2 by what I have in that post.

No. Like I said, Souls is about devolution and digress. Pistols represent evolution and progress.

So does the Evelyn, Crystal Magic, and the Dragon Covenant, but they are still in the game.

Not sure if joke or

I don't think we're on the same page.

Avelyn is a work of art. Its maker is dead and we can never hope to get something nearly as good. Ever. Now imagine that in the real world; seeing an object, painting, game, whatever and knowing that there will never be anything that comes close to it. Like, no chance at all.

In same ways, crystal magic represents progress. It also warns of the dangers of progress in the Souls universe (namely insanity).

Not sure where you're going with Dragon cov. Not the most progressive party, I'd say. You'll want to vote Darkwraith I think.

Slarg232 wrote:

DE5PA1R wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:
I actually did address theme, Despair. A pistol would fit the theme of Dark Souls 2 by what I have in that post.

No. Like I said, Souls is about devolution and digress. Pistols represent evolution and progress.

So does the Evelyn, Crystal Magic, and the Dragon Covenant, but they are still in the game.

minor glimmers of hope to make the chosen undead carry on. a pistol. well, we have all wondered how guns would work against a sword.

DE5PA1R wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

DE5PA1R wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:
I actually did address theme, Despair. A pistol would fit the theme of Dark Souls 2 by what I have in that post.

No. Like I said, Souls is about devolution and digress. Pistols represent evolution and progress.

So does the Evelyn, Crystal Magic, and the Dragon Covenant, but they are still in the game.

Not sure if joke or

I don't think we're on the same page.

Avelyn is a work of art. Its maker is dead and we can never hope to get something nearly as good. Ever. Now imagine that in the real world; seeing an object, painting, game, whatever and knowing that there will never be anything that comes close to it.

In same ways, crystal magic represents progress. It also warns of the dangers of progress in the Souls universe (namely insanity).

Not sure where you're going with Dragon cov. Not the most progressive party, I'd say. You'll want to vote Darkwraith I think.

Everyone is dead in Dark Souls, we are just summoning ghosts and shadows due to how convoluted time is; Tarkus died in Anor Londo before we get there, but we summon him at it's door step. Beautrice has been known to be dead for MANY years, but we still summon her quite a bit.

While the Crystals are a sign of scientific insanity, they still help us, the player progress in our studies. Almost all scientific studies of note have been done because of insane people, but they still help those who don't stoop to that level.

Dark Wraiths steal the souls from people; not exactly progress. The Dragon Bros are actively trying to get an entire race back on it's feet. That will take some drastic progress.

Re: everyone dead
We're getting off-topic. My point was that the Avelyn is literally the pinacle of technology and nothing will ever be that awesome again. It reinforces the despair of the situation. And since it's just a nifty crossbow, A) doesn't represent a huge step forward and B) it's not the start of the industrial revolution.

Re: crystals
That's not actual progress though. It may help one Undead go through his trials a bit easier but it isn't so easy to understand and manipulate that it's going to kick-start a renaissance. Also, that stuff's made of souls, so...

Re: dragons
Lol if you get the dragons back they'll kill all the humans. Not exactly progress.

Slarg232 wrote:

DE5PA1R wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

DE5PA1R wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:
I actually did address theme, Despair. A pistol would fit the theme of Dark Souls 2 by what I have in that post.

No. Like I said, Souls is about devolution and digress. Pistols represent evolution and progress.

So does the Evelyn, Crystal Magic, and the Dragon Covenant, but they are still in the game.

Not sure if joke or

I don't think we're on the same page.

Avelyn is a work of art. Its maker is dead and we can never hope to get something nearly as good. Ever. Now imagine that in the real world; seeing an object, painting, game, whatever and knowing that there will never be anything that comes close to it.

In same ways, crystal magic represents progress. It also warns of the dangers of progress in the Souls universe (namely insanity).

Not sure where you're going with Dragon cov. Not the most progressive party, I'd say. You'll want to vote Darkwraith I think.

Everyone is dead in Dark Souls, we are just summoning ghosts and shadows due to how convoluted time is; Tarkus died in Anor Londo before we get there, but we summon him at it's door step. Beautrice has been known to be dead for MANY years, but we still summon her quite a bit.

While the Crystals are a sign of scientific insanity, they still help us, the player progress in our studies. Almost all scientific studies of note have been done because of insane people, but they still help those who don't stoop to that level.

Dark Wraiths steal the souls from people; not exactly progress. The Dragon Bros are actively trying to get an entire race back on it's feet. That will take some drastic progress.

this one time i TRIED to digg to china, would you call what i didi progress?

DE5PA1R wrote:Re: everyone dead
We're getting off-topic. My point was that the Avelyn is literally the pinacle of technology and nothing will ever be that awesome again. It reinforces the despair of the situation. And since it's just a nifty crossbow, A) doesn't represent a huge step forward and B) it's not the start of the industrial revolution.

Re: crystals
That's not actual progress though. It may help one Undead go through his trials a bit easier but it isn't so easy to understand and manipulate that it's going to kick-start a renaissance. Also, that stuff's made of souls, so...

Re: dragons
Lol if you get the dragons back they'll kill all the humans. Not exactly progress.

1) So one state of the art masterpeice means no other can be made? Scream couldn't have been made, the Mona Lisa already existed.

2) Everyone has a soul, and in Dark Souls, anyone can learn to manipulate that soul energy, if they have the intelligence to do so. If one were as intelligent as Logan, the Chosen Undead, or Seathe, they could also push their souls to that limit.

3) We don't know who attacked first, so that's kinda moot. Also, I highly doubt they would slaughter the possibly one species that can repopulate their numbers.

^What exactly do you mean?

Slarg232 wrote:
1) So one state of the art masterpeice means no other can be made? Scream couldn't have been made, the Mona Lisa already existed.

Yes. This is Dark Souls, not the real world. Again, I don't think we're on the same page. Souls games are tragedies. They put us in a world that is decaying. It is getting worse all the time. We live in the real world, which is the opposite of that. Digress vs progress. Not sure how to make this clearer.

2) Everyone has a soul, and in Dark Souls, anyone can learn to manipulate that soul energy, if they have the intelligence to do so. If one were as intelligent as Logan, the Chosen Undead, or Seathe, they could also push their souls to that limit.

No. What drove Logan mad was the realization that sorcery is the manipulation of other's souls. See Crystal Soulmass, Dark Orb.

3) We don't know who attacked first, so that's kinda moot. Also, I highly doubt they would slaughter the possibly one species that can repopulate their numbers.

A) The dragons attacked first. They represent order and don't allow change, disparity, etc.
B) Dragons procreate as well; the Everlasting/Stone Dragon of Ash Lake, a descendant of the ancient dragons, is proof of this.

Regardless, what the dragonbros do can't objectively be considered progress.

DE5PA1R wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:
1) So one state of the art masterpeice means no other can be made? Scream couldn't have been made, the Mona Lisa already existed.

Yes. This is Dark Souls, not the real world. Again, I don't think we're on the same page. Souls games are tragedies. They put us in a world that is decaying. It is getting worse all the time. We live in the real world, which is the opposite of that. Digress vs progress. Not sure how to make this clearer.

2) Everyone has a soul, and in Dark Souls, anyone can learn to manipulate that soul energy, if they have the intelligence to do so. If one were as intelligent as Logan, the Chosen Undead, or Seathe, they could also push their souls to that limit.

No. What drove Logan mad was the realization that sorcery is the manipulation of other's souls. See Crystal Soulmass, Dark Orb.

3) We don't know who attacked first, so that's kinda moot. Also, I highly doubt they would slaughter the possibly one species that can repopulate their numbers.

A) The dragons attacked first. They represent order and don't allow change, disparity, etc.
B) Dragons procreate as well; the Everlasting/Stone Dragon of Ash Lake, a descendant of the ancient dragons, is proof of this.

Regardless, what the dragonbros do can't objectively be considered progress.

1) Even greek and Shakespear Tragedies have something in them that cause hope.

2) And yet, the PC doesn't hollow and he uses the same techniques with the same realizations.

3) Objectively by whose standards, ours or the dragons? It also very clearly states in the opening "With the Strength of Lords, THEY challenged the Dragons." The Dragons didn't make the first move, Gwyn did.

A few points since I'm seeing circles:
1. police research shows that if a gun hasn't been drawn already against someone with a knife who is about twenty feet away the knife user will win if he rushes you. Don't draw your gun at that point, defend yourself

2. from a human physiology standpoint, a single bullet does far less damage than traditional weapons when comparing potential output. Against the physics defying weapons of Dark Souls, an old timey gun would be underpowered. The reasons guns changed history was the ability for a single attack that bypassed armor making speed more useful. However, in game we're already absorbing unrealistic amounts of damage including other weapons intended to bypass, aka puncture, armor ( looking at you Lucerne)

3. regarding the evolution or devolution argument they already broke the mold with Chester. My opinion at least. Avelyn=art which can't be replicated, pistol could= science project that can't be duplicated


I know these have been touched on but my main point is this: It's not our vision. It's From's. If they want a pistol they have plenty of options to add it in and make it fit the story and maintain their chosen atmosphere and have it balanced.

Easy answer for example: Some renowned learner was working toward mastery of black powder. Sadly, his life was cut short and in a terrible blaze his entire laboratory was destroyed in what some called a divine explosion. The only thing to survive was a single pistol he had sent to ____ as a commission to get cash for ongoing research. Too bad bandits killed the delivery guy and it was lost.

In use in game they could have it be like a quick draw use. Holstered until you fire ( see point 1) above. Maybe it bypasses armor maybe it doesn't. See point 2 but remember we're ignoring physics a lot in game anyway

Just because they could make it op doesn't mean they have to. It could have a pve niche with only novelty use for looks in pvp. Like early guns, it could be low power with short range and terrible accuracy. We're talking, most of us, about a unique item. Possibly a prototype. Think Wright brothers plane, not the Red Baron. Both early designs..... worlds apart.

Now, do I want it in game. Meh.... I'm a sword and scythe guy. But can From make it fit cleanly? I think so

Slarg232 wrote:
1) Even greek and Shakespear Tragedies have something in them that cause hope.

Not sure how that's relevant.

2) And yet, the PC doesn't hollow and he uses the same techniques with the same realizations.

It's not clear the Chosen Undead realizes what Logan did. It's also not clear that he/she is sane.

3) Objectively by whose standards, ours or the dragons? It also very clearly states in the opening "With the Strength of Lords, THEY challenged the Dragons." The Dragons didn't make the first move, Gwyn did.

Objectively means from an objective point of view.

They challenged the dragons because the dragons kept killing them when they went above ground. There is no reason to kill the dragons if they were friendly.

DE5PA1R wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:
1) Even greek and Shakespear Tragedies have something in them that cause hope.

Not sure how that's relevant.

2) And yet, the PC doesn't hollow and he uses the same techniques with the same realizations.

It's not clear the Chosen Undead realizes what Logan did. It's also not clear that he/she is sane.

3) Objectively by whose standards, ours or the dragons? It also very clearly states in the opening "With the Strength of Lords, THEY challenged the Dragons." The Dragons didn't make the first move, Gwyn did.

Objectively means from an objective point of view.

They challenged the dragons because the dragons kept killing them when they went above ground. There is no reason to kill the dragons if they were friendly.

1) You cannot say "This is a tragedy" and then ignore comparisons to the best tragedies in human history.

2)They are completely sane, as they haven't yet hollowed and know the difference between a friend (Solaire) and a Foe (Everything else).

3) There is no way for you to know that. That is simply speculation, and it adds nothing to any discussion which isn't a discussion about speculation.
Also, apparantly the Spanish killing and enslaving the ancient Latin Americans never happened, because the Ancient Latin Americans were friendly and the spanish killed them. They were worshipped as gods.

You guys are literally picking eachothers arguments over words and clearly missing the most rational and valid points in this thread.

ErrJon6661 wrote:You guys are literally picking eachothers arguments over words and clearly missing the most rational and valid points in this thread.

To be fair, he started it