by callipygias Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:21 pm^That's going above and beyond to improve the Dark Souls experience. You're taking all my +1s lately, Tolvo.
+21
DanielCdable
ViralEnsign_
Grey-Ronin
reim0027
FruitPunchNinja
bloodpixel
Yarxov
Rynoa
Tolvo
RANT
Yukon
Ironliftr3
BLA1NE
callipygias
ARSP
WarriorOfSunlight
aceluby
Serious_Much
Yesuurd
JY4answer
Kaminari
25 posters
Why so much hate in pvp?
callipygias- Hollowed
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aceluby- Insomniac
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Let's also not forget it's pretty easy to find summons in Kiln, plus if you do get invaded you get like 15 min before worrying about another invasion.
Tolvo- Town Crier
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There is also the issue that with summons they might appear like farmers if they are waiting around for a third. Although if they are already up to three summons it is very easy to tell if a person is a farmer or there for the boss.
Rynoa- Obsessed
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I agree with everybody and nobody - depending on the situations there are things that annoy me and things than don't.
Sometimes I'm okay with being BSed sometimes I'm okay with WoG, sometimes I don't.
The 2 things I REALLY consider cheap are:
1. taking advantage of lag to chain backstab me or homing soul mass me - and let's be honest, it's pretty clear when someone fighting you has a lag issue
2. when they don't give me the opportunity to do anything. For example, I just spawned in the forest, near the stairs, and the host+phantoms just spammed me WoG before I could move, making me fall off the cliff <- That I consider cheap. I also consider cheap when they wait me in 3 at my spawn point and kill me before I can move, etc...
Just give me a little chance of moving - I'm talking from the point of a forest hunter here. I NEVER EVER invaded someone in the forest going for sif.
Of course, I've also been the invaded a lot of times. I usually like to play in co-op with one friend of mine and as we are walking around doing our business (going for the red dragon/a boss/clearing an area to get the items) someone ALWAYS invades. Once we were in New Londo because I was going to help him with the 4 kings. He dies. He re-summons me, and as we go for his souls someone invades and kills both of us. He loses all the souls forever. We say DAMN!! but that's how the online game is.
So, yes, the only 2 things I really consider cheap are the 2 above
Edit: sorry for my terrible english, I'm too tired to check it now
Sometimes I'm okay with being BSed sometimes I'm okay with WoG, sometimes I don't.
The 2 things I REALLY consider cheap are:
1. taking advantage of lag to chain backstab me or homing soul mass me - and let's be honest, it's pretty clear when someone fighting you has a lag issue
2. when they don't give me the opportunity to do anything. For example, I just spawned in the forest, near the stairs, and the host+phantoms just spammed me WoG before I could move, making me fall off the cliff <- That I consider cheap. I also consider cheap when they wait me in 3 at my spawn point and kill me before I can move, etc...
Just give me a little chance of moving - I'm talking from the point of a forest hunter here. I NEVER EVER invaded someone in the forest going for sif.
Of course, I've also been the invaded a lot of times. I usually like to play in co-op with one friend of mine and as we are walking around doing our business (going for the red dragon/a boss/clearing an area to get the items) someone ALWAYS invades. Once we were in New Londo because I was going to help him with the 4 kings. He dies. He re-summons me, and as we go for his souls someone invades and kills both of us. He loses all the souls forever. We say DAMN!! but that's how the online game is.
So, yes, the only 2 things I really consider cheap are the 2 above
Edit: sorry for my terrible english, I'm too tired to check it now
BLA1NE- Stat Guru
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I like being invaded on my way to Sif, though. I usually just run all the way to his door, so an invader wouldn't even have a chance to catch me. But if I get invaded once I'm there, I send them a message saying that I'm on the bridge in front of Sif's door, and that they can come face me! I'll wait a few minutes, but it's rare that they show. 
Yarxov- Revived
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^ With my low poise/agility builds a bridge battle would be suicide.
bloodpixel- Hollowed
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In my opinion, it depends on the location. If it's obvious they know it's a pvp hotspot then I find it dishonorable. If not then it's understandable since I'm there to ruin their lives. But that's just my opinion.
FruitPunchNinja- Revived
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the ONLY thing that pisses me off in dark souls is the farmers who sit with their 2 summons and 20flasks and just gank invaders who are looking for duels(it doesnt piss me off in the forest really just areas like burg and kiln). I'm like tolvo except a little different, i test the waters and see what the situation is like. If the person is trying to run from the fight the whole time i will let them and crystal out. If im invading with a low level save and its a complete noob just trying to see what pvp is like i will use an unupgraded weapon and just take it easy on them and let them see what pvp is like in a sense then i crystal out. i dont really find any spells or anything cheap unless its used along with my above mentioned pet peeve. Healing during a duel does make you look like a loser, and its obvious when its a duel.
reim0027- Moderator
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IMO, if I'm questing and being invaded, all rules are off. I can choose to fight them or speed run to the boss fog, hide behind my phantoms, set traps, estus spam, anything goes.
When I'm dueling (summoning invaders, hosting fights, or waiting to be invaded), then I don't heal, unless my opponent heals.
When I'm dueling (summoning invaders, hosting fights, or waiting to be invaded), then I don't heal, unless my opponent heals.
Guest- Guest
What's wrong with healing? The game has healing items & spells so they can be used. Just pop a humanity it restores you to full hp & you can carry 99 of them unlike Estus Flask which is limited to 20 & only heals 800 at +7.
Tolvo- Town Crier
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Because then there will be endless fights. I can easily get away from a person and heal 99 times if I want to. I don't want to, that practically ruins the combat of the game for me if I just can't die.
bloodpixel- Hollowed
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Yes, of course, I'm going to constantly have 99 humanity at all times.Oo1Zer0 wrote:What's wrong with healing? The game has healing items & spells so they can be used. Just pop a humanity it restores you to full hp & you can carry 99 of them unlike Estus Flask which is limited to 20 & only heals 800 at +7.
Guest- Guest
Humanity is incredibly easy to farm. You don't need to have 99 at all times the point is that people complain about 20 flask that don't even heal full hp when humanity is always an option for invaders. I wonder if people complaining about this actually use the red soapstone or dragon eye. Forced invasion should never be considered honorable.bloodpixel wrote:Yes, of course, I'm going to constantly have 99 humanity at all times.Oo1Zer0 wrote:What's wrong with healing? The game has healing items & spells so they can be used. Just pop a humanity it restores you to full hp & you can carry 99 of them unlike Estus Flask which is limited to 20 & only heals 800 at +7.
Tolvo- Town Crier
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Oo, I use RSS, Red Orb, Cat Ring, and Dragon Eye. In all forms, I frown down upon flasking by the host during a duel. If I see them do that I kill them rather than duel them. There is a difference between PvE interrupted by PvP, and real PvP. In real PvP, I will punish you for such actions. In interrupted PvE, I'll let it slide.
bloodpixel- Hollowed
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Which brings me to the point of where I'm invading. If it's Kiln or somewhere similar, I will expect the host to realize that it is a honorable PvP zone, whether or not they play honorably. Likewise, if they are just trying to kill the boss or it's somewhere else, then I have no problem with them flasking. But, if they're waiting specifically for an invasion, then I will assume they will want a duel.Oo1Zer0 wrote:Humanity is incredibly easy to farm. You don't need to have 99 at all times the point is that people complain about 20 flask that don't even heal full hp when humanity is always an option for invaders. I wonder if people complaining about this actually use the red soapstone or dragon eye. Forced invasion should never be considered honorable.bloodpixel wrote:Yes, of course, I'm going to constantly have 99 humanity at all times.Oo1Zer0 wrote:What's wrong with healing? The game has healing items & spells so they can be used. Just pop a humanity it restores you to full hp & you can carry 99 of them unlike Estus Flask which is limited to 20 & only heals 800 at +7.
Guest- Guest
Ummm yeah Red Orb & Cats Ring are forced invasions. If you're looking to dual throw down a sign. Still doesn't mean the person isn't allowed to heal it's a part of the game while you can also do the same.Tolvo wrote:Oo, I use RSS, Red Orb, Cat Ring, and Dragon Eye. In all forms, I frown down upon flasking by the host during a duel. If I see them do that I kill them rather than duel them. There is a difference between PvE interrupted by PvP, and real PvP. In real PvP, I will punish you for such actions. In interrupted PvE, I'll let it slide.
Honorable PvP zone based on who's rules? Honestly if you're not throwing down a sign for the invasion & talking before hand about so called rules you shouldn't be surprised when stuff like that happens. So there's an imaginary no items rule(stupid)? What about faith types that like healing spells(for some odd reason)? Are they not allowed to use their spells just because you don't want them to heal? Where does the line end? Is a mage supposed to not use spells just because a fighter type doesn't have any? That's just retarded.bloodpixel wrote:Which brings me to the point of where I'm invading. If it's Kiln or somewhere similar, I will expect the host to realize that it is a honorable PvP zone, whether or not they play honorably. Likewise, if they are just trying to kill the boss or it's somewhere else, then I have no problem with them flasking. But, if they're waiting specifically for an invasion, then I will assume they will want a duel.
Grey-Ronin- Regular
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This whole problem is why I think FROM should have made it easier to do organized PvP. I've played both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls and respect the developers attitude about their online mechanics, but think that it results in a limited PvP game. I was initially an advocate for the way the online mechanics work. Now I'm just tired of waiting to be summoned into FC fights. I get my enjoyment out of the game by duelling not waiting around for a duel to then be jumped by a couple of pricks so why are there these limitations to getting a fight started?
If you could organize PvP then Fight Club tournaments and fair duels could be held a lot easier and an understanding of the rules can be agreed on (i.e. no healing as most people seem to think it is bad form). Whereas, any random invader can be treated as such - a no holds barred situation.
The way I think it should be handled is that the random invasion system still would be the same, but for duels you would have books (one for duelling the other for co-op) that would list all the players in the area that are willing to either co-op or duel that could be activated at the bonfires. That way you wouldn't have to find a stupid sign on the ground and you would know that in general if you summon someone in for a duel that you'll get an honest fight. You could also implament a rating system so if someone keeps taking advantage of the duelling system they could be rated down so they don't get asked for duels in the future.
If you could organize PvP then Fight Club tournaments and fair duels could be held a lot easier and an understanding of the rules can be agreed on (i.e. no healing as most people seem to think it is bad form). Whereas, any random invader can be treated as such - a no holds barred situation.
The way I think it should be handled is that the random invasion system still would be the same, but for duels you would have books (one for duelling the other for co-op) that would list all the players in the area that are willing to either co-op or duel that could be activated at the bonfires. That way you wouldn't have to find a stupid sign on the ground and you would know that in general if you summon someone in for a duel that you'll get an honest fight. You could also implament a rating system so if someone keeps taking advantage of the duelling system they could be rated down so they don't get asked for duels in the future.
ViralEnsign_- Lordvessel
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If I may interject here I get the feeling that they are trying to say that in a duel, and the current indicatpr for dueling behavior is a bow before the fight as commonly accepted by most of the PvP players, means that one shouldn't heal by any means during the fight.
Yeah Zero you are right a humanity is fully healing and easy to farm but the fact that a host can spam his flasks is relatively annoying and a sign that they are requiring a quick heal to play on par with you (I'm not say this makes them inferior to you).
The Kiln is also a player created honourable PvP duel spot as people only got into invading there because they didn't want to be hit by spawn campers and such. The entire meta game is player created and most players I've come up against (Yeah anecdotal evidence, I'll just dismiss that right now) have generally accepted the no heal rule. I've recieved messages about it from other players when I GLed em and sent them when they flasked and most people have been apologetic about them or simply haven't used em.
The difference between healing miracles and such is the time it takes to cast them. Sure I might get off a Great Heal or summat before he Chain BS's me but in them time it takes me to realise that he's gonna flask he has already done it and regained his HP.
I'm pretty sure the guys are say not to avoid using spells or miracle but to stay away from the easy way out.
Yeah Zero you are right a humanity is fully healing and easy to farm but the fact that a host can spam his flasks is relatively annoying and a sign that they are requiring a quick heal to play on par with you (I'm not say this makes them inferior to you).
The Kiln is also a player created honourable PvP duel spot as people only got into invading there because they didn't want to be hit by spawn campers and such. The entire meta game is player created and most players I've come up against (Yeah anecdotal evidence, I'll just dismiss that right now) have generally accepted the no heal rule. I've recieved messages about it from other players when I GLed em and sent them when they flasked and most people have been apologetic about them or simply haven't used em.
The difference between healing miracles and such is the time it takes to cast them. Sure I might get off a Great Heal or summat before he Chain BS's me but in them time it takes me to realise that he's gonna flask he has already done it and regained his HP.
I'm pretty sure the guys are say not to avoid using spells or miracle but to stay away from the easy way out.
Kaminari- Obsessed
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ViralEnsign_ wrote:If I may interject here I get the feeling that they are trying to say that in a duel, and the current indicatpr for dueling behavior is a bow before the fight as commonly accepted by most of the PvP players, means that one shouldn't heal by any means during the fight.
Yeah Zero you are right a humanity is fully healing and easy to farm but the fact that a host can spam his flasks is relatively annoying and a sign that they are requiring a quick heal to play on par with you (I'm not say this makes them inferior to you).
The Kiln is also a player created honourable PvP duel spot as people only got into invading there because they didn't want to be hit by spawn campers and such. The entire meta game is player created and most players I've come up against (Yeah anecdotal evidence, I'll just dismiss that right now) have generally accepted the no heal rule. I've recieved messages about it from other players when I GLed em and sent them when they flasked and most people have been apologetic about them or simply haven't used em.
The difference between healing miracles and such is the time it takes to cast them. Sure I might get off a Great Heal or summat before he Chain BS's me but in them time it takes me to realise that he's gonna flask he has already done it and regained his HP.
I'm pretty sure the guys are say not to avoid using spells or miracle but to stay away from the easy way out.
So what about humanity then? It dosen't take so much longer to hea with humanity than it takes to heal with an estus, right?
DanielCdable- Casual
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One simple thing to go by is simply to do whatever your opponent does. Personly i follow this rule. My options in combat is limited to what my opponents are doing.
If he heals, i'll heal, or exploit the the chance for a BS.
Spamming Wog: evade, lure him to use all of his uses or BS
Spamming swings and hits: Parry.
People will always hate, though pvping becomes very dull when everyone is using tactics which everyone is using. Fighting someone who is spamming WoG - No Fun. BS-fishing - No Fun
And there is clear difference when invading and dueling. PvP hot spots tend to be designated pvp/duel spots. Farmer will also abuse this for their own amusement. And always take to mind that not everyone knows these unwritten rules.
My opinion when i get invaded outside these duel hotspots, is to do what ever i can to survive. Use every possibility i can to kill the invader, not intending to duel me
When dueling, respect must be shown. Sadly not everyone is this way. Therefor i use the simple rule. Utilize your opponents actions, against them. But that doesnt mean that when he BS once, you should Chain-BS him.
Sorry for a somewhat rushed comment
If he heals, i'll heal, or exploit the the chance for a BS.
Spamming Wog: evade, lure him to use all of his uses or BS
Spamming swings and hits: Parry.
People will always hate, though pvping becomes very dull when everyone is using tactics which everyone is using. Fighting someone who is spamming WoG - No Fun. BS-fishing - No Fun
And there is clear difference when invading and dueling. PvP hot spots tend to be designated pvp/duel spots. Farmer will also abuse this for their own amusement. And always take to mind that not everyone knows these unwritten rules.
My opinion when i get invaded outside these duel hotspots, is to do what ever i can to survive. Use every possibility i can to kill the invader, not intending to duel me
When dueling, respect must be shown. Sadly not everyone is this way. Therefor i use the simple rule. Utilize your opponents actions, against them. But that doesnt mean that when he BS once, you should Chain-BS him.
Sorry for a somewhat rushed comment
reim0027- Moderator
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What's wrong with healing? During invasions of questers, nothing.
During organized duels - Unnecessarily prolongs fights.
For example, I ran into a random farmer last night in the pit. After every hit, he would put his back to the wall and flask. Every hit! He was wearing full Smough's armor and spamming longsword R1. I parried him, he ran away and flasked. Over and over. For duels, winning at any cost is a good way to foment animosity. I finally BS him with my Estoc, and chained > R2 with my GS. I killed him as he ran away to flask.
During organized duels - Unnecessarily prolongs fights.
For example, I ran into a random farmer last night in the pit. After every hit, he would put his back to the wall and flask. Every hit! He was wearing full Smough's armor and spamming longsword R1. I parried him, he ran away and flasked. Over and over. For duels, winning at any cost is a good way to foment animosity. I finally BS him with my Estoc, and chained > R2 with my GS. I killed him as he ran away to flask.
Yesuurd- Insomniac
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wow this is a hot topic! brb.....
Tolvo- Town Crier
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Oo, if the person is human in their world they know the risks and are technically inviting me with that same logic. They didn't have to be human, but they are. As well, why would a person be sitting in the kiln, in the duelling zone, not summoning people, if he doesn't want to PvP? He just wants to sit there for no reason and expects no invasions at all? That makes no sense at all.
Reim, sounds like you need to get yourself a stunlocking weapon haha, those are great against farming scum.
Reim, sounds like you need to get yourself a stunlocking weapon haha, those are great against farming scum.
Forum Pirate- Chosen Undead
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Any one bother to explain the difference between equal and same? Equal is even, fair, or having no distinct and overwhelming advantage.
Same is identical, possessing the exact qualities of another (person, object ect.)
Ie we are most likely equals, but we are not the same person.
So a duel is a fight on equal terms where each player possesses a roughly equivalent number and quality of advantages so the fight is decided by skill alone not a fight were clones duke it out.
Same is identical, possessing the exact qualities of another (person, object ect.)
Ie we are most likely equals, but we are not the same person.
So a duel is a fight on equal terms where each player possesses a roughly equivalent number and quality of advantages so the fight is decided by skill alone not a fight were clones duke it out.
Guest- Guest
Actually I try to stay human as much as possible for a number of reasons.Tolvo wrote:Oo, if the person is human in their world they know the risks and are technically inviting me with that same logic.
1. In order to summon other players you need to be human.
2. There are areas where being human is required in order to unlock hidden NPC invasions & or interactions. If you're not looking at a guide ideally you'll want to stay human in every new area so you don't miss out on anything.
3. Invasion is a part of the game just as using Flask are. If you don't want to be invaded simply play offline. Doesn't mean I have to fight fair whenever someone force invades me.
4. I prefer my character to look human for aesthetic reasons.
1. Waiting for someone to throw down a sign for co-op.Tolvo wrote:They didn't have to be human, but they are. As well, why would a person be sitting in the kiln, in the duelling zone, not summoning people, if he doesn't want to PvP?
2. Waiting for a specific person to throw down an invasion sign. Because they want to dual that specific person.
3. Farming Black Knights & went idol for a minute.
4. Waiting to farm retards that make up imaginary rules on fighting. Then laughing when he gets hate mail after killing them.
Look above there are a number of reasons why.Tolvo wrote:He just wants to sit there for no reason and expects no invasions at all? That makes no sense at all.
Last edited by Oo1Zer0 on Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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