The Search for Lore

in other words it is nearly impossible to know the lore of the Souls games until more games are released and all the secrets will slowly reveal themselves

O well im just listing possibility not debating fact

Acidic_Cook wrote: However, no lore from other games will solve this.

I must say, I have a bit of a disagreement with you here. I believe that looking at the other games might provide a bit of insight into small things about this game. For example, the White and Black dragons of Kings Field, Seath and Guyra respectively. We know Seath is obviously the source of inspiration for Seath's basic design and name, if not only for being white, so I for one believe the name of the Everlasting/Stone Dragon to be Guyra. I'd love to say anything about Kings Field, but unfortunately that is about the extent of my knowledge on the games (besides that there's a pendant in that too, to my knowledge.).

Anyway, while I don't believe specific bits of lore from other games will unlock this game's secrets, I don't find it unlikely that little bits of relations to the others this one shares could be helpful in understanding it further.

I don't think he's saying the Lore is connected, but that there can be some insight taken.

For example, Patches the Hyena is a huge dick that tricks you in Demon's Souls and tries to get you killed, twice even, before you confront him and he heads back to the Nexus.

So, when his bald, big nosed self pops up in Dark Souls, prior players don't go "Oh hey, I wonder who this morally upright chap is?" They look at Patches, sling some curses, and are careful around him.

Are they related via lore? Not directly, but by looking at the story and lore of one, you can better understand the story and lore of the other via a kind of transience.

yes that is what I mean im just placing possible opinions I did not mean to challenge your ideas Acidic_Cook im just leaving something to think about because no one can know the lore just guess at what very little clues we get

thats alright that happens to the best of us just type your ideas and well listen

As per usual, I'm going to add my two cents which will likely be met with some venom.

I don't think the covetous gold serpent rings are directly related to anything. While they may share some qualities of the Primordial ones, their item descriptions, and artwork describe wildly different things than the serpents are, as they indeed look more snake like. Given the amount of dead people in both areas (including known people like Prince Rickard, Way of White Paladin Leroy, etc), it could be safe to assume that some unfortunate undead met his soured fate, and you are the beneficiary of his things.

As for the Darkwraith's and possible connection to Nito... shakey. I see where you are coming from, but if they were related or connected, I don't think Kaathe would be so adamant about you killing all the Lords. He'd show some remorse, like how Frampt does in regards to Gwyn being his friend. That, and when looking at the item text for the Darkwraith stuff, it mentions them being former knights of New Londo, serving the Four Kings, and initiated by Frampt. The armor (according to descriptions) transformed when they were corrupted, like how the Four Kings transformed when they were as well, taking on the grim visage to match their life draining power, like a sort of reaper.

Now yes, this does share some similarity with Gravelord Nito, however its wildly different from the covenant. Darkwraiths harvest humanity by invading and taking from others, its sort of a... survivalist mentality where you are taking from those weaker than yourself to feed your strength and so on. With Gravelords, you're getting a reward sure, but it seems more about spreading misery and death, just blighting the land further and so on. While I can't exactly recall the text, Kaathe seems to imply that Darkwraiths had a brighter purpose before their corruption, and it was that which lead to their obliterating New Londo, forcing Gwyn to flood the place to contain the problem, and kill everyone there.

From there, we look at the mass of souls, and the wisps. I wouldn't be surprised if the wisps were created by it, but I think that as well could be a coincidence set up by gameplay to amp up the challenge. The Mass of Souls is a pretty easy enemy that needs them to amp up the challenge. Having the Wisps there allow them to help the undead (which seems like a collection of the dead in New Londo), set up its slow, but heavy attacks.

That's my two coppers on the matter. Before any anger is put out, not looking to attack, I'm just merely bringing up convergent points for the sake of discussion and furthering intelligent progress.

Today I was thinking about Gwyn. I haven't had much time to play and investigate things lately, so I figured I'd just go on and post about them.

I've seen it said that Gwyn is hollowed... but how could this be? Doesn't the Dark Sign affect only humans? Gwyn is not a human, is he? And even if he is, he's been in the Kiln for who knows how long; how could he have gained the Dark Sign in the first place (not that it's exactly mentioned how one acquires it)?

What seems to me is this; Gwyn is not the final boss of the game. Instead, 'Gwyn' is the result of choosing the Link The Fire ending. The player character is garbed in the Great Lord set, takes Gwyn's Great Lord Sword, and awaits those who enter. And when they are finally killed by a challenger, the Dark Sign takes hold once again, sending them back through time again and resulting in the New Game Plus.

At this point I feel like I'm making it up to go with gameplay mechanics (and certainly the result of the Dark Lord ending isn't touched upon), but it seems like a logical possibility. The time in Lordran is distorted, after all. Who's to say what happens?


Another thing I was wondering about... what is it that makes the Lord Soul of Gwyn so great in comparison to that of Nito or The Witch of Izalith? Why is it that, even after being fragmented (presumably) to form the shards of The Four Kings and Seath, that his is still the 'ultimate' soul? Questions questions.

Dismiss the 'PC becomes the new Lord of Cinder' theory of mine if you wish, I wouldn't try arguing it unless you'd want me to. Maybe we should have a new thread for theorizations and keep this one for things that seem to have clues littered about the game for their truths and meanings.

Anyone tried an no Estus Run? Maybe there is way to get the key to get out of the asylum without getting an estus? I remember I read somewhere that estus were something bad for some reason.

Don't think you can. Have to get the Flask to get out, because you get the Big Pilgrim key when you talk to Oscar or beat Asylum Demon on the second meeting, which means you have to talk to Oscar to get the 2nd Floor Key.

Unless you meant a don't-drink-any-estus run.

My questions about Ash Lake's location and its clouds, and the monsters there.

If I remember right, under Firelink Shrine is Valley of the Drakes, Blgihttown, the Depths and New Londo, and from Blighttown you go down to the Great Hollow, and from there down to Ash Lake. Its way way way way way down underground, so the clouds you see there can't be what you see from Firelink Shrine. The arch trees there are very very tall, stretching into the clouds. Is it possible for there to be so much space there a sea (lake?) forms, as well as an atmosphere of its own? I see why the Crystal Cave would have the huge clam demons, but why Ash Lake as well? I see why there would be a Hydra down there, considering the everlasting dragon (Guyra) has been there since Seath's betrayal. But why is there on in the Darkroot Garden, along with crystal golems (which makes even less sense)? I see how the crystalised Seath has anthing to do with the crystal golems and clams, but the Darkroot hydra and everlasting dragon?

Also you can't give any ember to just a blacksmith is has to be the right one so what's the point of asking for the option to give ember

The Enchanted ember is from the lost land of Oolacile and the ember is found in the forrest
the same forrest as the gold crystal golem is wich is connected to Seath
And Seath is the only one making an ember the crystal one[/b]

you can also see the arch trees from totg, from where you fight leeroy i think.. really it looks like half of lordran is supportedby the remains of archtrees, (the only living arch tree is the big one near fire link i think, actually those "trees' you see down there in ash lake might be the archtree's tap roots reaching deep into the earth for water and sustenance, said roots are also all over lost izalith... but are twisted and gnarled possibly an effect of the chaos flame

that is possible since it is very deep underground

Acidic_Cook wrote:Yes, you can reach that giant, however light armor is required. In Sen's fortress, when you are outside on the roofs, their Is a walkway that leads to the two caged elevators, and Tge tower that has the merchant. In Order to reach the giant, you have to sprint and jump to their using the walkway. You will take some damage, however you can kill the giant

I have not seen this staircase. Perhaps I shall look at it today

found out yesterday that the boulders block the path to the staircase no way to get there
And you need homeward to get back
I didn't drop down the because my prismstone say's no way you live

Hey Acid I was a bit curious about something, I was wondering if there was anything of Note about Lautrec's armor's Curse Resistance. I know earlier there was some mention of him possibly being there for something involving Seath, and Seath's breath does emit a curse effect so I was wondering if there was any relation behind that or if it was merely the idea of his armor being blessed or "Favoured?" I know it's not much and a quite a stretch, but it was just something nagging at the back of my mind that I couldn't help asking about.

Thanks for replying about the archtrees. Clears that one up.

Just a little idea, after reading that but about Logan. If Seath was created and turned into a dragon thru sorcery, and was catching maidens to experiment on, then is he trying to re-create that, creating another dragon? Is it possible that Logan knew that, and is now allowing himself to be captured by Seath's serpent men twice, so that he could become one himself? First time he was 'caught' he was put in Sen's for god-knows how long, and even got bricked in. Second time he was put in a cage, where a Firekeeper sat, waiting to die. That didn't work out the way he wanted to either.

I always thought that the sorcery rings having a dragon symbol was out of place, but now it actually falls in line with the theories you have here. The fact that Logan was using Seath's crystal magic where we first encounter Seath is even more of a hint. Seath was residing there before being interupted by the player, and left to protect his crystal in the Crystal Cave. What is Logan doing there, then?

About him dumping Griggs twice, perhaps he knew his naive apprentice would be safer if he didn't follow? Griggs looks up to Logan and keeps searching for him, like a puppy looking for his owner. Naive and innocent, yet loyal in such a dark place.

Hi there, first post here so forgive me for anything i may do

Anyhow my main question is, has anyone ever tried using the prayer or prostration gesture at those maiden statues? I mean at all of them in a certain order to see if anything changed? I was just thinking about how offerings or worship was often done at statues and how in video games sometimes secrets can be ridiculously convoluted. In the same vein i was also wonder if dropping an item/s at one or all of these statues could idk activate something in the world.

Also reading the first page dunno if anyone else mentioned this but the guy you kill at sens fortress is named Undead Prince Ricard. Therefore Ricards rapier. Probably the son of Rendal

No idea if this has been posted yet, but how Reah got to dukes can be found in the description for the sens fortress cage key.

"If a hapless adventurer becomes fatigued during an imprudent attempt to overcome the fortress, the serpent men will not kill him, but lock him up in a lonely cage. Eventually, unless they have forgotten, they drag the victim off to who-knows-where."

Remember the lizard men in the Dukes Prison? Yup. So, Rhea tried to go through sens (to anor londo?) and got captured

To add to my question, I found this as a reply to a video on lore.

Acidic_Cook wrote:As for the first post, whatever Logan knew is little to nothing in our regard, only being the search for the Regal Archives, a study area meant for mighty kings. Whatever reason why Logan was found in the same place as the Dragon was in the first place, and why he decided to become nude, is still a mystery. However, hints of people wearing clothes while becoming such a serpent would be removed, so the idea still stands. As for trying to get caught intentionally to become a dragon, unlikely. As we see the cthulu-serpent experiments by his second cage, their tails and strange shapes is more similar to that of what Gwyndolin is, more so that a Dragon (look at his legs). As it were, the creatures also only drop Humanity, which might hint at something about that matter. As it were, I do not think that Logan wanted to be intentionally caught.

But the Picasas are (theorized to be) all female, are they not? Perhaps Logan had known something beforehand about them, and believed that he could find some way to becoming a dragon from there. I find it possible too that he may have removed his clothes in an attempt to gain a dragon's body, though I don't know too much in the regards to how that works.

As for the serpent men, I've realized that, could it be that they are actually failures of those who attempt to become dragons? Perhaps they too were experiments, similar to what Logan hoped to be subjected to, but failed to properly ascend to dragonhood?

Perhaps what they are is dragons such as the Stone/Everlasting Dragon, but created through magical means, and thus failed. Rather, a dragon such as Seath must be made by magic, into a being of magic, while a being such as The Everlasting/Stone Dragon (Or just Guyra, as I'd rather call it) must be created through a 'trail' of ones physical capabilities? Perhaps it is this too that results in the deformed dragons, such as the Gaping Dragon.


Although, of all the things suggested, I still find the connection drawn between Gwyndolin and Seath through the Picasas a bit stretched. But to each his own. May the hunt for the remaining lore prove fruitful.

i just find the ones that weep creepy.

We really need to get all of the relevant lore stuff compiled on the Lore page. We would almost need a separate wiki for the lore...

Emergence wrote:We would almost need a separate wiki for the lore...

We could always just toss it all on the WMG page over at TvTropes
I hope that that was delivered well enough to be clear sarcasm....

That would create walls and walls and walls and walls of text just by Acidic_Cook. He deserves his own damn wiki