Solaire as God of War

1) The dark lord is likely the GoW. The dark lord would not link with the fire. Oscar was originally planned to be a rival who became the dark lord (or so I have been told).
2) You cannot say it was him. Your logic here is faulty.
3) This has been brought up before. It is an obvious link, but nowhere near enough.
4) The warriors of sunlight follow the god of war. Solaire is a warrior iof sunlight, he does not lead them.
5) This is not evidence for anything. Why is there still a body if it was solaire?
6) The gods fled to carim, not astora. Oscar is also from astora.
7) I dont understand how this point ties into your argument.
8) Same as above
9) Solaire is on the same quets as you, he is a warrior of sunlight. He links with the fire to find his sun.
10) Solaire does not pass on the miracle, the statue does when yo uoffer it Gwyn's soul. The player can become extremely skilled with a normal weapon and throw spears. This prves nothing.
11) He is infected by the parasite, where one you pacify it it can no longer infect you. If you look in the artbook there is a crazy undead wearing one.

Overall you raise some good points, but many are speculative and shaky and some are based on an assumption and circular logic. The GoW was not reduced to mrotal form, he was stripped of staturs and thrown out.

Okay u can't read that whole thing right now but I got through the first part.

I see Solaire as a different type of story. He is instead a devoted Follower of the gods who meets a tragic end. Miyazaki said in an interview the death ending for him is their intention, but they wanted a summon for Gwyn and to add a secret for us to discover, so they added in the he lives part. So the scenario in which he dies is very significant and shouldnt be over looked.

So in this new context Solaire is simply a zealot, who is blinded by his pursuits and lead to a tragic demise.

DoughGuy wrote:1) The dark lord is likely the GoW. The dark lord would not link with the fire. Oscar was originally planned to be a rival who became the dark lord (or so I have been told).
2) You cannot say it was him. Your logic here is faulty.
3) This has been brought up before. It is an obvious link, but nowhere near enough.
4) The warriors of sunlight follow the god of war. Solaire is a warrior iof sunlight, he does not lead them.
5) This is not evidence for anything. Why is there still a body if it was solaire?
6) The gods fled to carim, not astora. Oscar is also from astora.
7) I dont understand how this point ties into your argument.
8) Same as above
9) Solaire is on the same quets as you, he is a warrior of sunlight. He links with the fire to find his sun.
10) Solaire does not pass on the miracle, the statue does when yo uoffer it Gwyn's soul. The player can become extremely skilled with a normal weapon and throw spears. This prves nothing.
11) He is infected by the parasite, where one you pacify it it can no longer infect you. If you look in the artbook there is a crazy undead wearing one.

Overall you raise some good points, but many are speculative and shaky and some are based on an assumption and circular logic. The GoW was not reduced to mrotal form, he was stripped of staturs and thrown out.

just trying to add some fuel to the fire as it were!

all my points were purely speculative, but unless we have rock solid evidence to the contrary then I think its important to suggest alternatives.

1) Isnt the Dark Lord idea purely speculation also or has it been proven somewhere?
2) Sorry, I shoulda clarified where I put 'speculative points' at the top to ensure that I wasnt making any definitive statements, the statue being Solaire is contextual in relation to the other points listed.
3) It seems a stretch that from would put such closely associated, deeply embedded imagery into the game without their being some link, but I do also agree that just because it may be a stretch, it doesnt mean they arent deliberately misleading us to think so!!
4) Is that a fact?
5) i'll get back to you on that one
6) OK cool, I didnt know they definately fled to Carim. I did make a point of Oscar being from Astora tho, which was the point of 6, 7 & 8.
7 & 8) This was to just enforce that there may some link between Astora and the Royalty or Gods, and hence Solaire, Oswald, Andre and Anastacia all being entirely central to helping you out!
9)
10) thats a fair point
11) ummm

Its actually pretty fcking amazing that so many varied ideas can be drawn from the game, even if I do get a bit wild and free with the facts!

1) Not entirely sure, but Acidic believes it so I am inclined to. Whether the pgymy is the first firekeeper or the GoW is still up for debate though.
4) The fllowers of the sunbros are the followers of the GoW. Solaire is a sunbro ergo he cant be the GoW

eminusx wrote:Its actually pretty fcking amazing that so many varied ideas can be drawn from the game, even if I do get a bit wild and free with the facts!

Yes I agree, that's why It's the greatest Rpg ever.

Answer my last post

Dark Lord is specifically mentioned by Kaathe. He encourages you to become it.

Federally wrote:

eminusx wrote:Its actually pretty fcking amazing that so many varied ideas can be drawn from the game, even if I do get a bit wild and free with the facts!

Yes I agree, that's why It's the greatest Rpg ever.

Answer my last post

Dark Lord is specifically mentioned by Kaathe. He encourages you to become it.

aaah, the sweet smell of hard facts! cheers man!
I feel like I come across as being deliberately confrontational sometimes with my posts, not intentional, its funny how this game worms into your head tho and really pushes you to find out the truth! Brilliant. Plus, you guys are waaaaay ahead of me so apologies if some of my suggestions seem a bit 'old hat'.

I'll take this moment to apologize if I come across as cynical or stubborn. I've been doing this a long time and come across too many people who try to jump into the discussion without reading any previous theories.

Okay to be more specific just to fill you in. In the first talk with Kaathe he says he is awaiting the emergence of the Dark Lord, then asks you to get the Lord Vessel to slay Gwyn and bring about the age of darkness, otherwise known as the age of man. After retrieving the Lord Vessel he then tells you to slay Gwyn and become the Dark Lord.

I still want you to scroll up and read and respond to my last Solaire post!

DoughGuy wrote:I'll take this moment to apologize if I come across as cynical or stubborn. I've been doing this a long time and come across too many people who try to jump into the discussion without reading any previous theories.

hey definitely not stubborn or cynical at all, ive read pretty much all the lore from you guys on here, I guess I sometimes find it difficult to separate solid fact from speculation. I completely understand how it would be frustrating with people like me constantly throwing in new ideas.

Federally wrote:Okay u can't read that whole thing right now but I got through the first part.

I see Solaire as a different type of story. He is instead a devoted Follower of the gods who meets a tragic end. Miyazaki said in an interview the death ending for him is their intention, but they wanted a summon for Gwyn and to add a secret for us to discover, so they added in the he lives part. So the scenario in which he dies is very significant and shouldnt be over looked.

So in this new context Solaire is simply a zealot, who is blinded by his pursuits and lead to a tragic demise.

ah I can totally see that now, which completely blows my ideas out of the water! haha unlucky!

It kinda makes Solaire a more sympathetic, deluded figure. Another warrior on a fruitless mission, something to relate to.

In the same interview Miyazaki said they filled the game with tragic figures, and Solaire fits in well within this context.

Also I would say his candidacy for the God of War and your theory really ends with the Sunlight Spear. Solaire doesn't have it, strike against him. Then the player acquires it from the GoW's statue, after presenting the soul of his father! This means the GoW doesn't like his father anymore and wants him dead, though it's unsure of whether this is because he is holding an old grudge or he doesn't like what his father has become. It's also unclear which solution he wants, but he is obviously rewarding the killer of his father.

. . .and some fools would have you believe Dark Souls has no story!!!

I'm not sure if i'd like FROM to release a full explanation of the lore or not, I love the speculation, maybe they should have a poll on them answering a single question, maybe we should have one on here?

I'd say the pendant might come out on top?

cheers for your help Fed!!

eminusx wrote:. . .and some fools would have you believe Dark Souls has no story!!!

I'm not sure if i'd like FROM to release a full explanation of the lore or not, I love the speculation, maybe they should have a poll on them answering a single question, maybe we should have one on here?

I'd say the pendant might come out on top?

cheers for your help Fed!!

Well in relation to that I have more Miyazaki info lol.

Miyazaki says his interest in fantasy came from when he was a kid reading American fantasy books. At the time he couldn't understand the entire book so a there were a lot of details he missed or didnt understand. He says he enjoyed this mysterious element created and wanted to make a game that created something similar.

So while they've filled in a few things here and there, the whole intent behind the lore was to leave much unexplained and allow us to fill it in ourselves. So there's no way they'll ever color it all in for us. Now to break from facts for a second, I also think this means there are not definite answers for some questions. I think he is writing for himself and having concrete answers for all is not what he wants, so I bet he hasn't answered all the questions himself in a definite fashion.

Also if you poll here the pendant will win, and if we received the answer we would all be disappointed.

He also said he will take the secret of the pendant to his grave so ...

Not sure I follow the "special soul" thing. Are we saying that Solaire can't be the former God of War because if you kill him he doesn't drop a lord soul shard or whatever? Why would a former God of War still have a special soul?

I think sometimes the most obvious clue is the right one and I think Solaire is a beautifully illustrated poetic device that blurs the line between the real mccoy and a red herring.

For me personally though, this line, when read tongue in cheekly proves it to me:

"Solaire's incredible prowess must come from rigorous training alone, because his equipment exhibits no special traits"

I imagine someone saying that with shifty eyes flitting from side to side hoping the listeners believe the tale. "It MUST be that and NOTHING else."

befowler wrote:Not sure I follow the "special soul" thing. Are we saying that Solaire can't be the former God of War because if you kill him he doesn't drop a lord soul shard or whatever? Why would a former God of War still have a special soul?

He doesn't need to have a shards of the lord soul, but a special one like his brother dolin has.

1. He isn't the leader

2. He is a MEMBER of WoS, so that's why he knows how to use Lightning Spear

3. He is a loyal WoS member, he should like the sun

4. If we can do it, he can do it

My list of ideas was a veritable seive of holes I'll admit, lets face it there was irrefutable evidence against most of it, but i'm still not wholly convinced there isnt something more to the story of Solaire that were missing, hmmmm, its like a little mouse gnawing away at my cheese-like brain. . .nibble nibble

'i cannot give up, I became undead to pursue this' . . WHY does he need to be undead to pursue his own sun?is he really such a misguided fool?

Like Emergence said, maybe he is just a poetic device that is used to wrong-foot borderline obsessives, a Hitchcock-esque macguffin, ambiguous but tantalising!

Why would a god made mortal need to become undead?

Have we ever considered the possibility that maybe, just MAYBE, Solaire is JUST insane?

DoughGuy wrote:Why would a god made mortal need to become undead?

to carry out his mission? whatever that may be. I guess thats what i'm asking really. Have these questions already been answered, for certain?

Apologies for repeatedly reviving this, it keeps turning around in my mind and there seems to be a lot of loose ends that arent fully explained?

Also Fed wrote "Miyazaki said in an interview the death ending for him is their intention, but they wanted a summon for Gwyn and to add a secret for us to discover, so they added in the he lives part. So the scenario in which he dies is very significant and shouldnt be over looked"

This in no way says that Solaire isnt Gwyns son, if Miyazaki wanted us to discover a secret, then why couldnt that secret also BE that he is Gwyns son? What other secrets are there that specifically relate to Solaire other than his origin and his goal? Miyazaki is adept at misdirection, so why couldnt the descriptions on Solaires armour and weapons be a deliberate attempt to mislead us into thinking he is only a deluded follower? Maybe thats what he wants us to think to hide the 'secret' about Solaire, giving him godlike powers and amazing weapons would be too obvious and very un-Miyazaki.
The fact that Solaire lives or dies says nothing about his past, plus, If Miyazaki intended the death ending for Solaire then doesnt this fit in nicely with his overall theme of tragic, forlorn characters? Solaire being his son, on a mission to become grossly incandescent like his magnificent father but ending in his death would fit this nicely. We are still none-the-wiser as to exactly what Solaires goal is or why he became undead to pursue it.
Also, the argument about the GoW rewarding you for killing Gwyn, Solaire appears as a summon before the Kiln to help you kill Gwyn? so wouldnt this suggest a similarity or affinity with the GoW?

There was also a statement from Miyazaki (I believe) that Solaire living means that he gets to continue his quest in his world and links the fire. So a few conclusions from this for the discussion. Nothing makes you more incandescent then becoming a fire capable of flash melting rock so that seems his likely goal. The maggot thing is because he went there looking to fulfill the quest, and became enamored with the light in the tunnel. Let's face it, every time you find him he's pretty intently watching something and it's usually the sun or fire. The guy's a little off no matter what interpretation you want. He gets too close to a parasite and bam.....crazy. Ok. More crazy.

Since he links the fire in his own world that means he's doing the time flux thing I like to describe with two pieces of cloth. Our world is a nicely made bed with taut sheets while in relation to ours, his world is a crumpled blanket on top of the sheet. They meet in many places but they're two separate pieces of cloth. So why doesn't our wyvern bother him? It's not his wyvern. He did whatever Sun Bros do to rid themselves of wannabe dragons.

None of this proves or disproves if Solaire is the god of war but it might help us decide what his storyline is.

eminusx wrote:

DoughGuy wrote:Why would a god made mortal need to become undead?

to carry out his mission? whatever that may be. I guess thats what i'm asking really. Have these questions already been answered, for certain?

Apologies for repeatedly reviving this, it keeps turning around in my mind and there seems to be a lot of loose ends that arent fully explained?

Also Fed wrote "Miyazaki said in an interview the death ending for him is their intention, but they wanted a summon for Gwyn and to add a secret for us to discover, so they added in the he lives part. So the scenario in which he dies is very significant and shouldnt be over looked"

This in no way says that Solaire isnt Gwyns son, if Miyazaki wanted us to discover a secret, then why couldnt that secret also BE that he is Gwyns son? What other secrets are there that specifically relate to Solaire other than his origin and his goal? Miyazaki is adept at misdirection, so why couldnt the descriptions on Solaires armour and weapons be a deliberate attempt to mislead us into thinking he is only a deluded follower? Maybe thats what he wants us to think to hide the 'secret' about Solaire, giving him godlike powers and amazing weapons would be too obvious and very un-Miyazaki.
The fact that Solaire lives or dies says nothing about his past, plus, If Miyazaki intended the death ending for Solaire then doesnt this fit in nicely with his overall theme of tragic, forlorn characters? Solaire being his son, on a mission to become grossly incandescent like his magnificent father but ending in his death would fit this nicely. We are still none-the-wiser as to exactly what Solaires goal is or why he became undead to pursue it.
Also, the argument about the GoW rewarding you for killing Gwyn, Solaire appears as a summon before the Kiln to help you kill Gwyn? so wouldnt this suggest a similarity or affinity with the GoW?

Now you're over thinking lol. Note this statement was made in a long interview, I can't find the link for, that was very laid.back and had a lot of laughter. He was saying he wanted to add secret summon of Solaire at Gwyn and see how long it took us to figure it out. So I don't think I'd read into it as far as you are lol.

Also don't forget what Solaire says when you find him with the maggot, he says he's found his sun. His mission is accomplished. I think this points to him being totally insane lol. The guy is totally off his rocker the moment you meet him. He is a man driven mad by the eternal twilight Lordran is in and this madness leads to an obsession with the sun.

In regards to why he has to become undead, well I don't think he can be a WoS without being undead. I don't think non undead can take advantage of the parralel worlds and weird flow of time like undead can. So I doubt a Wss would work for a human.