So what do you think the number one thing wrecking Dark Souls is?

Lots of things have caused players to quit the game. Difficulty, combat, lack of narrative. Being stomped on by the occasional griefer (op gear or not) is part of the game (why one would go human and run that risk again just for the chance at some help is beyond me,) just like those other things. Should we also remove them to get more fans?

We'd be another generic mainstream game in short order.

Look, it is clear that there are a number of you who have differing opinions to me on this, and that's fine, I'm not here to say who's right or who's wrong, but am merely trying to put my point across. I apologise for some of my earlier comments, even though they were all made in jest, and so to prevent this from spiralling out of control I'll simply sign off for now... G

Forum Pirate wrote:Lots of things have caused players to quit the game. Difficulty, combat, lack of narrative. Being stomped on by the occasional griefer (op gear or not) is part of the game (why one would go human and run that risk again just for the chance at some help is beyond me,) just like those other things. Should we also remove them to get more fans?

We'd be another generic mainstream game in short order.

Because seeing my character in hollow form is painfull for me

The people who play it.

Now before the rage flies at me, I loved Demon's Souls made a tonne of friends in game who I used to PvP and Coop with for a whole year, and also ran into the usual same people, it was a great community experience of sharing experiences and knowledge.

In Dark Souls, I've met nobody, other than a scant few people from the forums who usually are invading when I'm out trying coop. Coop is now the feeling of a mad rush towards the boss, trying to complete it before the inevitable invader rolls in causing lag and the host to just panic and die to something completely unrelated.

I've had no sense of community in game, hence I had to join a forum in order to find one. There's been no sharing of knowledge or experiences, anything I couldn't work out I had to look up on the Wiki.

People never message me after anything, which is the complete opposite of Demon's Souls, it's playing with a bunch of uncaring, faceless strangers who are there to take advantage of your skills and assistance before casting you off after the deed is done.

I know this was Miyazaki's intention for both games multiplayer, but it looks like he only (unintentionality) succeeded in this one.

Just my thoughts on things I've experienced.

(And before some smart guy tries to tell me to do, yes I only play offline now.)

That's too bad, Onion. Dark Souls is my first online game, and I went from 0 to 100 friends through high lvl 4 Kings co-op. Basically all but a few of the people on my friends list came from my sl 159 and 137 toons made specifically for the Kings. Even if your friends list is full it's still a great way to meet people; I'd estimate that I get messages of thanks 75% of the time on those characters, whereas the rest of the game -- even my Manus co-op toon -- it's maybe 5%.

After having taken some time to think i'd have to say atmosphere. The atmosphere in Dks is great, however, at times it feels like it lacks the atmosphere i'm looking for and that's why games such as Halo 4 and Guild Wars 2 could easily pull me away from Dks. That and the fact that i'm a total Halo nerd.

Onion Knight wrote:The people who play it.

Now before the rage flies at me, I loved Demon's Souls made a tonne of friends in game who I used to PvP and Coop with for a whole year, and also ran into the usual same people, it was a great community experience of sharing experiences and knowledge.

In Dark Souls, I've met nobody, other than a scant few people from the forums who usually are invading when I'm out trying coop. Coop is now the feeling of a mad rush towards the boss, trying to complete it before the inevitable invader rolls in causing lag and the host to just panic and die to something completely unrelated.

I've had no sense of community in game, hence I had to join a forum in order to find one. There's been no sharing of knowledge or experiences, anything I couldn't work out I had to look up on the Wiki.

People never message me after anything, which is the complete opposite of Demon's Souls, it's playing with a bunch of uncaring, faceless strangers who are there to take advantage of your skills and assistance before casting you off after the deed is done.

I know this was Miyazaki's intention for both games multiplayer, but it looks like he only (unintentionality) succeeded in this one.

Just my thoughts on things I've experienced.

(And before some smart guy tries to tell me to do, yes I only play offline now.)

There are always exceptions. I generally don't message people either if what's happening is just run of the mill stuff, but I always message if someone's done something that's impressed me, or if I've had a good fight I'll usually thank people or congratulate them. If someone messages me, I pretty much always respond. I was discussing earlier that I've been trying to use hatemail as a platform to help people out. There's always exceptions. I don't think I speak just for myself either. A lot of people here I think are pretty vocal in their play. I also find that the arena seems to be bringing it out of a lot of people too. I've found that generally if I end up fighting the same person more than a couple of times, we end up chatting.

Playing offline is a personal choice, and if you feel that's the best one for you, then I suppose it is, but I can't help but feel like you're just giving up on something that, I at least, feel is worth giving the benefit of the doubt.

I had a great experience yesterday. Playing on Xbox, I had an SL123 character, and the host had never been through the area (Oolacile Township). We beat up on Chester together, then got invaded by a human player. I was able to kill the invader, and he sent me thanks for that. He got killed down in the sorcerer meatgrinder, and I saw he had no silver pendant, so even though I got summoned by someone else, I messaged him to tell him where to get the pendant. THAT'S the part of this game that hooks me every time. The feeling that real people are helping each other, against both real and in-game enemies.

^Nice. I had a host at the bonfire before Manus who asked to trade for the Gold Tracer. Told him to hold on, crystaled out, took Artorias' Soul from my box, warped to the Township, gave it to Ciaran, warped back and he re-summoned me. He was grateful and gave me a ton of upgrade material I didn't have the heart to tell him I'd never use.

The positives of online Dark Souls help balance out the negatives.

Onion Knight wrote:The people who play it.

Now before the rage flies at me, I loved Demon's Souls made a tonne of friends in game who I used to PvP and Coop with for a whole year, and also ran into the usual same people, it was a great community experience of sharing experiences and knowledge.

In Dark Souls, I've met nobody, other than a scant few people from the forums who usually are invading when I'm out trying coop. Coop is now the feeling of a mad rush towards the boss, trying to complete it before the inevitable invader rolls in causing lag and the host to just panic and die to something completely unrelated.

I've had no sense of community in game, hence I had to join a forum in order to find one. There's been no sharing of knowledge or experiences, anything I couldn't work out I had to look up on the Wiki.

People never message me after anything, which is the complete opposite of Demon's Souls, it's playing with a bunch of uncaring, faceless strangers who are there to take advantage of your skills and assistance before casting you off after the deed is done.

I know this was Miyazaki's intention for both games multiplayer, but it looks like he only (unintentionality) succeeded in this one.

Just my thoughts on things I've experienced.

(And before some smart guy tries to tell me to do, yes I only play offline now.)

Interesting post. I've had a similar experience.

I've mixed feeling about low level griefers. On the one hand the talk about 'opportunities to learn' is complete nonsense when it comes to low level griefers. I was killed the other day at SL5 with a one handed R1 attack through my shield. I'm sorry but there's no learning to be had there.

The notion that they somehow deserve to one shot literally defenceless players because they are good enough to get to past the 4 Kings at a low level makes no sense to me either. Why, if they are skillful players, would they need to waste their time doing that?

I think it's far more likely that they are not particularly good players at all and that they usually lose against players when on an even playing field. That's why being OP is an attraction to them. They get to experience victory.

The reason I suspect they get past 4 Kings at such a low level is, ironically, because they summoned their way through the game and relied on help.

But I don't really care because after all, it's just a game. And at least serve as a foil to the ridiculously OP phantoms that are now everywhere. I really used to enjoy co-oping but now it's awful.

I summoned a guy the other day in the Depths. He sprinted to the fog gate and killed the Gaping Dragon with two spells of dark magic of some kind. What's the point in that?

No wonder we have low level griefers in the Burg who probably aren't capable of actually finishing the game.

Ideally I'd prefer to see co-op/invasion restrictions of some kind in the very early stages too. But there are pros and cons to this, I can see that.

dark bead abusers.

DMC wrote:I summoned a guy the other day in the Depths. He sprinted to the fog gate and killed the Gaping Dragon with two spells of dark magic of some kind. What's the point in that?

No wonder we have low level griefers in the Burg who probably aren't capable of actually finishing the game.

It's unfortunate that griefers, as pathetic as they are, are the lesser evil. OP phantoms running levels 1-shotting everything is bad enough, but they also gift their OP glitched gear to noobs, so they're not only ruining the level for them (even though the noob probably feels grateful at the time), they're potentially ruining their entire playthrough. I can't imagine how different my first playthrough of Dark Souls would've been if I started in the Burg with a +10 Fire Claymore.

At least the gifting part of it should be about done with, since they can't glitch anymore.

DMC wrote:Ideally I'd prefer to see co-op/invasion restrictions of some kind in the very early stages too. But there are pros and cons to this, I can see that.

I agreed with most of your post, but wanted to note that there are invasion restrictions in the Asylum already. It has to start somewhere.

As for the general community issue, I think you get out of DkS what you put into it. A coop run or invasion can certainly be just a grim, joyless affair amongst strangers if you let it, but it's amazing how just a little playfulness can completely change the dynamic. Use funny gear or gestures, temporary fatrolls, or just plain ol' classic sun praises and you can often get a really fun vibe going. It even works on all but the most unrepentant dead angling WOG spammer, to the point where I've made buddies with random invaders just because I cheered when they arrived, did something funny in PvP, or passed up an obvious time to backstab them when they first ran by me without seeing me. At the end of the day most people play this game for entertainment, and if it is clear you are there to have fun it becomes infectious. Playing it offline because you think there's no community seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me.

^ Good point. Believe it or not, I completely overlooked the Asylum when thinking about it.

And I have had fun like you mention with invaders. One time recently an invader and I just stood looking at each other for a bit too long and then neither of us seemed prepared to actually start fighting! It was a bizarre moment. I beckoned him to follow me and he then stood by and watched as I fought a desparately hard fight (SL 5) with the Black Knight in the Burg at SL5.

When I won he bowed

And then he proceeded to kill me with his lightining+5 uchi through my shield

I must point out that griefers arn't necessarily 1 shotting people in op gear. I invaded a sl 12 in the pw once, so I fought naked and with my bare hands against his gargoyal halbers. It took like 20 minutes for him to kill me and was great fun for me, afterwards I recieve a string of hatemail about how I was a griefer prick for wasting his time. Griefing is in the intent, not the actions.

I got invaded in Parish by some guy sporting a Lightning Claymore and Black Flame. I got only Scimitar +5, no spells, or anything. We fought for what seemed like an hour, but it was more like a minute. After several desperate attempts to protect my last Humanity, which included throwing Black Firebombs, using Gold Pine Resin etc. I managed to kill him, with a nice riposte.

Guys, that feeling when legit beats a twink...

*single manly tear*

Moral of the story?
Lag is a b*tch.

befowler wrote:

DMC wrote:Ideally I'd prefer to see co-op/invasion restrictions of some kind in the very early stages too. But there are pros and cons to this, I can see that.

I agreed with most of your post, but wanted to note that there are invasion restrictions in the Asylum already. It has to start somewhere.

As for the general community issue, I think you get out of DkS what you put into it. A coop run or invasion can certainly be just a grim, joyless affair amongst strangers if you let it, but it's amazing how just a little playfulness can completely change the dynamic. Use funny gear or gestures, temporary fatrolls, or just plain ol' classic sun praises and you can often get a really fun vibe going. It even works on all but the most unrepentant dead angling WOG spammer, to the point where I've made buddies with random invaders just because I cheered when they arrived, did something funny in PvP, or passed up an obvious time to backstab them when they first ran by me without seeing me. At the end of the day most people play this game for entertainment, and if it is clear you are there to have fun it becomes infectious. Playing it offline because you think there's no community seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me.

Agreed! Too many people bow, allowing their opponent the opportunity to get a quick back-stab in, but what they fail to realise is that a simple change in gesture will usually stop an Invader in his/her tracks, especially if it's one that appears to celebrate their arrival. I happen to think we have a pretty decent community going on here, and regularly come across posters from this here wiki, as well as players from all around the world. Sure there has been the odd person who comes across as being a bit of a jerk, but they are few and far between, and are certainly not a reflection of the DkS playing community as a whole. At the end of the day if you're looking to increase the number of people you interact with, why not simply send a Friends request to the people you meet, it's worked wonders for me.

Sentiel wrote:I got invaded in Parish by some guy sporting a Lightning Claymore and Black Flame. I got only Scimitar +5, no spells, or anything. We fought for what seemed like an hour, but it was more like a minute. After several desperate attempts to protect my last Humanity, which included throwing Black Firebombs, using Gold Pine Resin etc. I managed to kill him, with a nice riposte.

Guys, that feeling when legit beats a twink...

*single manly tear*

Moral of the story?
Lag is a b*tch.

Very nice indeed! As much as we all agree that most of those griefers are cowards and bullies, they do sometimes provide a challenge that can feel really good to overcome.

Forum Pirate wrote:I must point out that griefers arn't necessarily 1 shotting people in op gear. I invaded a sl 12 in the pw once, so I fought naked and with my bare hands against his gargoyal halbers. It took like 20 minutes for him to kill me and was great fun for me, afterwards I recieve a string of hatemail about how I was a griefer prick for wasting his time. Griefing is in the intent, not the actions.

How the heck were you a griefer, when the Host (equipment wise) was way more OP than you, and he/she ended up winning? :suspect: This is part of the problem, whereby a large proportion of our rapidly growing community look on invasions as 'a waste of time', when they should be looking on them as a game enhancement, and more importantly as an ideal opportunity to hone their PvP skills. Alright you may of been in the process of carrying out a co-op run, or are attempting to make your way through NG+-whatever, but that doesn't mean you cannot take a break from what you're doing to enjoy a little PvP bout once in a while. Encounters like yours really make me despair at times, they really do! If you're on PS3 please feel free to grief my world any time, as I would of loved to have had the chance to take you on like that!

Because griefing is not in my gear. He thought I was intentionally trying to ruin his fun (read:griefing) when I was really just trying to make the best of a bad situation because my sl 80 invaded a sl 12.

Back Lot Basher wrote:

Sentiel wrote:I got invaded in Parish by some guy sporting a Lightning Claymore and Black Flame. I got only Scimitar +5, no spells, or anything. We fought for what seemed like an hour, but it was more like a minute. After several desperate attempts to protect my last Humanity, which included throwing Black Firebombs, using Gold Pine Resin etc. I managed to kill him, with a nice riposte.

Guys, that feeling when legit beats a twink...

*single manly tear*

Moral of the story?
Lag is a b*tch.

Very nice indeed! As much as we all agree that most of those griefers are cowards and bullies, they do sometimes provide a challenge that can feel really good to overcome.

I disagree with your 'cowards and bullies' remark, for the plain and simple reason that unless we know them personally there is no way for us to know what is really going on in their minds, or why they do the things they do, but I do agree that a challenge overcome can be very sweet indeed!

Forum Pirate wrote:Because griefing is not in my gear. He thought I was intentionally trying to ruin his fun (read:griefing) when I was really just trying to make the best of a bad situation because my sl 80 invaded a sl 12.

My point exactly, he was wrong. He probably went into the fight considering it a complete waste of time, which was his own lose, as I can guarantee that if he went into the fight with a positive vibe he would of got a heck of a lot more out of it.

Forum Pirate wrote:Because griefing is not in my gear. He thought I was intentionally trying to ruin his fun (read:griefing) when I was really just trying to make the best of a bad situation because my sl 80 invaded a sl 12.

You went naked and bare-fisted, so yeah, that'll really humiliate some people when you're better than they are, as was obviously the case here. I'm not saying you were wrong, just explaining that it's pretty easy for me to see how he wouldn't exactly send you a friend request after.

Gazman0169 wrote:I disagree with your 'cowards and bullies' remark, for the plain and simple reason that unless we know them personally there is no way for us to know what is really going on in their minds.

A fair point, and I probably shouldn't generalize about all of them. Instead, I shall "speculate that many, or most, of them are cowards and bullies, because they prefer to beat and humiliate those with inferior gear, if not skills".

I think anyone who invades a lot at low levels, even without OP gear, gets an edge over new players simply because of their experience. They've seen the movesets of every weapon out there, and can counter a lot of attacks. I wouldn't classify those people as cowards or bullies...they're just better at the game because they've put in time in the trenches.

He should have used it as a low risk learning experience imo. And +1 for the use of reason in the green barred post.