What do backstabs really add to the game?

You'd still need some sort of a mechanic in place (were you to get rid of the BS) to punish enemies (in both PvE and PvP) who give their back to you.

It is exploitable and it does needs a major overhaul but it fills an important role. If it didn't exist then it would only encourage even more reckless plystyles and, not to mention, mage builds would be even more powerful.

Rynn wrote:

raphael1019 wrote:yea
I agree with op
people who swing a katana or poke with a spear and roll away are highly honorable skillful expert of Dark Soul
and people who roll BS are hopeless noob

I don't think I called a backstabber any names. I mention both PvP and PvE in my post.

Please read the post for it's contents, not for some invisible insinuation you feel I must have meant. I only mean exactly what is written.

it is clearly stated in your 2nd paragraph that
a BS is cheap, unfair, inappropriate and frustrating

Rynn wrote:

PlasticandRage wrote:I'm getting so sick of seeing these threads. I felt the same way for awhile, then I learned to effectively BS counter,

That isnt the point of my OP... my point is... why is backstabbing in the game in the first place? It accomplishes nothing, and it's harming variety to the game in a lot of ways. If a feature is only ever exploited, and is never or rarely used appropriately, that says a lot about the feature to me. Do you think it's actually contributing anything in the game for it to stay around as is.

Quote the Raven

While these are all avoidable, it raises the question... Why is a feature that is never used appropriately, in PvE or PvP situations, and rather adds a frustrating and downright unfair tactic to our arsenals included in the game?

That's the problem, it's not an exploit. It's a feature. You must learn to counter it. I know lots of feature that sound like exploits but they are certainly understandable and add depth to the gameplay. Like the un-avoidable stunlock: Kick+attack of Falchion on the left hand. It may sound like an exploit but it's not.

Backstabs are there as a tool, for sneaky or light players that dodge every attack and go up to your back because you full of armor and can resist most weapons. Backstabs ARE NOT only for assassinations. They were invented in the old RPG games for a reason, to prove armor is not all, and skill matters. Doing a roll-BS takes some skill, avoid being roll-BSed takes the same amount of skill, now, BSing a good player that knows how to Roll-BS, that's requires more skill.

I just can't explain it more without going in circles: it's about a character being faster than you, so he can dodge your attacks and go to your back and attack you from there. BS as an animation exist because that way ultra-tanks won't poise that attack from the back and just attack at the same time again while facing backwards where you are.

That's the point of thieves in RPGs. Dodge the opponent's attacks and attacking at the right time, in DkS the right time is backstabbing an opponent after they swing. It's not just assasinations and I think you're blinded by that fact, that you only want BS to exist when your target haven't detected you when that doesn't make sense and it's possible in Third Person games. Backstabs existed always both from assassins and from guys dodging attacks.

Think of: WoW, the Rogue has both the ability to backstab while being stealth (having an ultra bonus of damage) and backstab while not being stealth (lower bonus), the point is that in an actual fight, you can't backstab your opponent because he is always facing you (I mean mobs controlled by AI). Now when it comes to real people, they make mistakes, they may give you their backs at some point and that's when you can take advantage of your speed and critical ratio, and it's completely fair.

WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:You'd still need some sort of a mechanic in place (were you to get rid of the BS) to punish enemies (in both PvE and PvP) who give their back to you.

It is exploitable and it does needs a major overhaul but it fills an important role. If it didn't exist then it would only encourage even more reckless plystyles and, not to mention, mage builds would be even more powerful.

That's exactly what I mean, it's explotaible (I don't consider it an exploit, but I know what you mean with that and I agree), but it FILLS a role, it has PURPOSE.

I don't mean an exploit like the DWGR skip Ceaseless Dischargew trick, but I think you understood that.

Getting backstabed by a thief makes sense, getting backstabbed by a guy in full Havels using a Black Knight great axe.. no

Maybe if backstabs were limited to certain weapons they wouldn't be such a problem.

Like maybe straight swords and lower.

ChizFreak wrote:

Rynn wrote:

PlasticandRage wrote:I'm getting so sick of seeing these threads. I felt the same way for awhile, then I learned to effectively BS counter,

That isnt the point of my OP... my point is... why is backstabbing in the game in the first place? It accomplishes nothing, and it's harming variety to the game in a lot of ways. If a feature is only ever exploited, and is never or rarely used appropriately, that says a lot about the feature to me. Do you think it's actually contributing anything in the game for it to stay around as is.

Quote the Raven

While these are all avoidable, it raises the question... Why is a feature that is never used appropriately, in PvE or PvP situations, and rather adds a frustrating and downright unfair tactic to our arsenals included in the game?

That's the problem, it's not an exploit. It's a feature. You must learn to counter it. I know lots of feature that sound like exploits but they are certainly understandable and add depth to the gameplay. Like the un-avoidable stunlock: Kick+attack of Falchion on the left hand. It may sound like an exploit but it's not.

Backstabs are there as a tool, for sneaky or light players that dodge every attack and go up to your back because you full of armor and can resist most weapons. Backstabs ARE NOT only for assassinations. They were invented in the old RPG games for a reason, to prove armor is not all, and skill matters. Doing a roll-BS takes some skill, avoid being roll-BSed takes the same amount of skill, now, BSing a good player that knows how to Roll-BS, that's requires more skill.

I just can't explain it more without going in circles: it's about a character being faster than you, so he can dodge your attacks and go to your back and attack you from there. BS as an animation exist because that way ultra-tanks won't poise that attack from the back and just attack at the same time again while facing backwards where you are.

That's the point of thieves in RPGs. Dodge the opponent's attacks and attacking at the right time, in DkS the right time is backstabbing an opponent after they swing. It's not just assasinations and I think you're blinded by that fact, that you only want BS to exist when your target haven't detected you when that doesn't make sense and it's possible in Third Person games. Backstabs existed always both from assassins and from guys dodging attacks.

Think of: WoW, the Rogue has both the ability to backstab while being stealth (having an ultra bonus of damage) and backstab while not being stealth (lower bonus), the point is that in an actual fight, you can't backstab your opponent because he is always facing you (I mean mobs controlled by AI). Now when it comes to real people, they make mistakes, they may give you their backs at some point and that's when you can take advantage of your speed and critical ratio, and it's completely fair.

@Chiz: So your argument to me asking why this is even a feature, is to tell me it's a feature and to learn to counter it? What is this?

Backstabs were made so that a person could exploit lag to get a free hit for two thirds of your HP, that is once procced completely unavoidable and without any ability to react to?

Backstabs are implemented horribly in this game. Imagine if in your WoW example, that rogue could proc the ultra bonus to damage even without being in sneak mode. That's what we have here. We have a massive damage bonus that is easily exploited. We have a feature that is so powerful and so easy to use that every strategy has to revolve around it in PvP, and in PvE it's the primary tactic people use for slaying mobs (that can be backstabbed)

As implemented backstabs are not a positive contribution to Dark Souls.

Sloth9230 wrote:Getting backstabed by a thief makes sense, getting backstabbed by a guy in full Havels using a Black Knight great axe.. no

Maybe if backstabs were limited to certain weapons they wouldn't be such a problem.

Like maybe straight swords and lower.

That would require a serious revamp of all the heavier weapons.

And why it's not right? If you're foolish enough (supposing it wasn't a mistake , thus being your fault and still deserving it) why shouldn't be able to punish you giving him your back?

That's already been suggested and I agree with it. I don't understand how a BS with some of those big weapons work, you hold a guy in place for a couple of seconds, wind up, and then hit them twice. Unrealistic. While with the smaller weapons it's just a quick thrust through your back.

Then again, some people argue that DEX already enjoys a huge edge over Strength weapons as it is and this would just be another huge perk going towards DEX. You'd need to give something big weapon users something that would compensate for that.

WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:That's already been suggested and I agree with it. I don't understand how a BS with some of those big weapons work, you hold a guy in place for a couple of seconds, wind up, and then hit them twice. Unrealistic. While with the smaller weapons it's just a quick thrust through your back.

Then again, some people argue that DEX already enjoys a huge edge over Strength weapons as it is and this would just be another huge perk going towards DEX. You'd need to give something big weapon users something that would compensate for that.

Well now I think about it, you're right about that. You should still BE ABLE to backstab with big weapons, but they should have a nerf.

Rynn what I'm trying to tell you is that they have a purpose, if you don't like the fact they are so powerful, then we can talk about nerfing it, NOT REMOVING IT. I agree that in certain situations Backstabs require a nerf.

These are my suggestions:

• Make Hornet's Ring only work in light weapons (Straight Swords, Piercing Swords, and lower, NOT including Curved Swords [they have their own buff which is bleed]).
  
• Nerf the damage heavier weapons do on BS, this includes greatswords, curved greatswords, and everything above. From Greatswords they have their own nerf, and going above the nerf is stronger. The point is to make BS of big weapons still possible not because they do lot of damage but as an option to punish an opponent giving you his back. NEVER be as strong as a light weapons, and not even think about light weapons with hornets.
  
• In the middle point, the Curved Swords are left, aren't affected by Hornet, but at the same time they don't have a nerf like the heavier weapons do.
  
• Still there are certain weapons which are just too strong, like the Balder Side Sword buffed is too strong IMO.
  

What do you think about these Rynn? All together.

Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

raphael1019 wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

That's kind of one of the reasons I think BS with heavy weapons should still be possible BUT with the nerfs I said above, again kind of. And don't tell me "stack poise, and attack at the same time duh", because THAT certainly would mean STR builds can only be viable if they stack poise, and that would mean we are taking out variety from the game. See?

raphael1019 wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

if they rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

ChizFreak wrote:

WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:That's already been suggested and I agree with it. I don't understand how a BS with some of those big weapons work, you hold a guy in place for a couple of seconds, wind up, and then hit them twice. Unrealistic. While with the smaller weapons it's just a quick thrust through your back.

Then again, some people argue that DEX already enjoys a huge edge over Strength weapons as it is and this would just be another huge perk going towards DEX. You'd need to give something big weapon users something that would compensate for that.

Well now I think about it, you're right about that. You should still BE ABLE to backstab with big weapons, but they should have a nerf.

Rynn what I'm trying to tell you is that they have a purpose, if you don't like the fact they are so powerful, then we can talk about nerfing it, NOT REMOVING IT. I agree that in certain situations Backstabs require a nerf.

These are my suggestions:

• Make Hornet's Ring only work in light weapons (Straight Swords, Piercing Swords, and lower, NOT including Curved Swords [they have their own buff which is bleed]).
  
• Nerf the damage heavier weapons do on BS, this includes greatswords, curved greatswords, and everything above.
  
• In the middle point, the Curved Swords are left, aren't affected by Hornet, but at the same time they don't have a nerf like the heavier weapons do.
  

What do you think about these Rynn? All together.

How about they get auto-counter damage if they hit behind me? Daggers would receive a bigger bonus due to being designed for that purpose. I know that would affect dead angling, but it would be a lot less ******** looking when they lock me into an un-interuptible animation halfway through a battle and steal 66% or more of my life-pool; furthermore a backstab of this variety could still be rolled out of if you saw it coming, rather then our current system that only takes a milisecond, and is greatly assisted by lag.

How about they still perform the current backstab if I'm not locked on, so that an assassin can still get their major reward, but all these people that just run up in the middle of a battle and use lag to get a free backstab can't do that any longer?

Furthermore, if an alert enemy could not be backstabbed, PvE would be more difficult, since many players I've seen fight the silver knights in anor londo with backstabs, black knights with backstabs, at the early parts of the game, the balder knights with backstabs...

I can't think of many enemies you can backstab that players don't just backstab rather then fight when I am summoned to another hosts world, so that's why my OP states it brings nothing positive to either PvE or PvP.

At the very least the window for backstabs should be a lot smaller, I can get backtabbed from the left, from the right, during a roll, it's almost never even a backstab anymore >.>

Rynn wrote:

ChizFreak wrote:

WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:That's already been suggested and I agree with it. I don't understand how a BS with some of those big weapons work, you hold a guy in place for a couple of seconds, wind up, and then hit them twice. Unrealistic. While with the smaller weapons it's just a quick thrust through your back.

Then again, some people argue that DEX already enjoys a huge edge over Strength weapons as it is and this would just be another huge perk going towards DEX. You'd need to give something big weapon users something that would compensate for that.

Well now I think about it, you're right about that. You should still BE ABLE to backstab with big weapons, but they should have a nerf.

Rynn what I'm trying to tell you is that they have a purpose, if you don't like the fact they are so powerful, then we can talk about nerfing it, NOT REMOVING IT. I agree that in certain situations Backstabs require a nerf.

These are my suggestions:

• Make Hornet's Ring only work in light weapons (Straight Swords, Piercing Swords, and lower, NOT including Curved Swords [they have their own buff which is bleed]).
  
• Nerf the damage heavier weapons do on BS, this includes greatswords, curved greatswords, and everything above.
  
• In the middle point, the Curved Swords are left, aren't affected by Hornet, but at the same time they don't have a nerf like the heavier weapons do.
  

What do you think about these Rynn? All together.

How about they get auto-counter damage if they hit behind me? Daggers would receive a bigger bonus due to being designed for that purpose. I know that would affect dead angling, but it would be a lot less ******** looking when they lock me into an un-interuptible animation halfway through a battle and steal 66% or more of my life-pool; furthermore a backstab of this variety could still be rolled out of if you saw it coming, rather then our current system that only takes a milisecond, and is greatly assisted by lag.

How about they still perform the current backstab if I'm not locked on, so that an assassin can still get their major reward, but all these people that just run up in the middle of a battle and use lag to get a free backstab can't do that any longer?

Furthermore, if an alert enemy could not be backstabbed, PvE would be more difficult, since many players I've seen fight the silver knights in anor londo with backstabs, black knights with backstabs, at the early parts of the game, the balder knights with backstabs...

I can't think of many enemies you can backstab that players don't just backstab rather then fight when I am summoned to another hosts world, so that's why my OP states it brings nothing positive to either PvE or PvP.

Now we are getting to the point . Let's think how to "fix" backstabs. But let's not be extreme and remove them. I think the starting point is that backstabs:

• Have a purpose and fill a roll in the game, and add depth.
  
• Are NOT broken in every aspect, but they could be tweaked in certain situations.
  
• And we most agree that heavier weapons should have some kind of nerf when it comes to BSing. In opinion I truly believe "one" of the best choices is what I proposed.
  

Now I have to sleep (I'm very tired and it's late here). I will read your suggestions tomorrow . Goodnight everyone.

Sloth9230 wrote:

raphael1019 wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

if he rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

you are wrong
you can roll bs a poke away spear
you can poise bs a dex user if he decide to hit and roll
but if he continue on swinging instead of rolling away, the bs would be cancel
so its like scissors ,paper and rocks

raphael1019 wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:

raphael1019 wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

if he rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

you are wrong
you can roll bs a poke away spear
you can poise bs a dex user if he decide to hit and roll
but if he continue on swinging instead of rolling away, the bs would be cancel
so its like scissors ,paper and rocks

Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him ) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.

ChizFreak wrote:

raphael1019 wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:

raphael1019 wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

if he rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

you are wrong
you can roll bs a poke away spear
you can poise bs a dex user if he decide to hit and roll
but if he continue on swinging instead of rolling away, the bs would be cancel
so its like scissors ,paper and rocks

Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him ) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.

what you wrote was good
but.....
the current dominant weapons are DEX WEAPON
and STR weapon need a buff, not a neff

You can roll BS with any weapon, and even though they take the same skill to execute strength weapons do more damage because? Becuase you happened to be wielding a strength weapon when you did one particular action, that had nothing to do with your choice in weapon.

In most games grab attacks are cancel-able at the beginning, since backstabs are pretty much grabs, then maybe their should be a way to cancel them if your quick enough.

raphael1019 wrote:

ChizFreak wrote:

raphael1019 wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:

raphael1019 wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

if he rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

you are wrong
you can roll bs a poke away spear
you can poise bs a dex user if he decide to hit and roll
but if he continue on swinging instead of rolling away, the bs would be cancel
so its like scissors ,paper and rocks

Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him ) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.

what you wrote was good
but.....
the current dominant weapons are DEX WEAPON
and STR weapon need a buff, not a neff

str weapons do need a nerf, but only for the backstabs, they do not need buffs, you sacrifice quick attacks for big hitting ones that can either sweep, smash, or fling you up into the air. Str builds should learn to fight unlocked imo because those slow attacks can trace in any angle, but locking on to someone will limit it to the exact position of where they were when u are swinging. to counter the "grab" of a backstab all you do is pivote 180* and parry, it is so funny to see those backstabbers fail.

And most people use Dex weapons because they go better with other builds, not necessarily because they're better on their own.

BeeSeaEss wrote:

raphael1019 wrote:

ChizFreak wrote:

raphael1019 wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:

raphael1019 wrote:

Sloth9230 wrote:Maybe cause they're ugly and I don't want to look at them?

How would it be huge revamp? simply don't start a backstab everytime they're behind me. They have a big weapon, they can still stunlock me, but at leasts this way I don't get some ridiculous animation.

Edit: ChizFreak, I like all those, though straight swords without thrust attacks should be in the same boat as curved swords.

If a Dex weapon user decide to roll away after everyattack
an ultra great weapon would never be fast enough to punish unless he swing before the dex user

if he rolled away after every attack then you'd never get the chance to land a backstab, so whats your point? People who do nothing but dodge are a pain in the butt for everyone.

you are wrong
you can roll bs a poke away spear
you can poise bs a dex user if he decide to hit and roll
but if he continue on swinging instead of rolling away, the bs would be cancel
so its like scissors ,paper and rocks

Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him ) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.

what you wrote was good
but.....
the current dominant weapons are DEX WEAPON
and STR weapon need a buff, not a neff

str weapons do need a nerf, but only for the backstabs, they do not need buffs, you sacrifice quick attacks for big hitting ones that can either sweep, smash, or fling you up into the air. Str builds should learn to fight unlocked imo because those slow attacks can trace in any angle, but locking on to someone will limit it to the exact position of where they were when u are swinging. to counter the "grab" of a backstab all you do is pivote 180* and parry, it is so funny to see those backstabbers fail.

first of all, you think the 22kg demon great axe which force me to either go naked or mid roll should do similar critical damage to a 1 kg dagger?

and swinging to your back doesn't make you invicible to roll BS
it somehow depends on how fast your opponent perform the roll BS

ChizFreak wrote:
Read what I wrote. One of your suggestions is what the OP wanted (seems like we convinced him ) to remove, and the if the other is the only option then we wouldn't be giving too much of a choice to STR builds, wouldn't we? It would take away variety.

The way backstabs are implemented right now is completely wrong. The system needs to be ripped out from the roots and replanted, or not implemented at all with how it's set up...

But here is my two cents on a strength build, and it's advantages over a dex build.

With the exception of spears, most dex weapons have the liberty of swinging more often, but when the strength weapon hits; damn does it hurt, and often stun. One of my favorite strength weapons is the Greatsword. It's actually an Ultra-Greatsword, and it does thrust damage. I like to use it's heavy attack and it's rolling attack, especially on dex builds, because dex build users will rush forward and try to get a single hit on you quickly, before rolling away. However the rolling attack is boosted by the leo ring and whacks the Dex user for 1100 damage, and punishes him for being so tragically predictable.

Other forum members, and myself, have in the past discussed how spears have too little cons for their vast list of positive benefits. While not an undefeatable weapon, spears are clearly overpowered IMHO, and I think some other forum members might agree with me that they are pretty ridiculous weapons.

Strength builds are reactive builds, while dex builds are active builds. The Strength user should be reacting to the actions of the dex user, and it would only take 1 well timed blow in order to end the dex build's actions.

Currently however, instead of getting to react, the strength user ends up getting backstabbed. The strength user either continues to get backstabbed by dex users whom instead of striking, try back backstab him, or is forced to counter-backstab them, and then is left with a likely dead opponent due to how rediculously overpowered their backstabs damage was.

IMHO we'd see more strength builds without the backstab mechanic being the way it currently is.