What do backstabs really add to the game?

raphael1019 wrote:

ChizFreak wrote:

Rynn wrote:

Tomhet wrote:*sigh* More complaining :roll: Backstabs are useful for PvE, specially at low levels. Killing Havel without them would be extremely difficult. It's a feature I would hate to see removed.

My post goes over PvE. It's abused in PvE as well, and as it stands is a bad contribution to both PvE and PvP.

Killing Havel should be extremely difficult.

Yes, and it IS. Fight him with a "heavy" character, it would be a rock vs rock fight, that would either be: long because none takes fast damage or short because 3 hits and you're dead because of heavy weaponry. But because of BS fast characters with fast, light but low damaging weaponry have a chance. It's about variety and giving everyone a chance. I already said that I agree that heavy weapons should need a nerf when it comes to Backstabs.

And raphael1019, that's the point, there shouldn't be a way that "works against everything". Because that would make those selected group of people stronger. BS on the other hand can be done by anyone, but fast characters (which MUST sacrifice armor and most heavy weaponry to be fast) have an advantage in doing just that.

And I can dodge Crystal Spears, Crystal Homing Soul Mass, and Dark Bead, FAT rolling just fine, AND win. And I can tell you and I can dodge ANYTHING midrolling. I prefer to be speedy though so I tend to go fast rolling and no poise at all (because I don't like it very much). I go for the looks with when it comes to armor (mostly clothes in my case haha).

There is no such thing as a specific group having an advantage on rolling
because regardless of what weapon a guy choose to use, EVERYONE (Well, 98.99% ppl that I see in pvpv) FAST ROLL
And I would argue that "having a work against everything" solution that every build can use is a good thing
otherwise, the result of a fight would be highly dependent on builds (think mage vs great magic barrier)

And for the second part.............I mean .....seriously....

Do I really need to explain how MID ROLL and FAT ROLL S***?
I thought that was common sense, general knowledge, Newton first law, fact that could be stated in present tense with !!!at the end
I can dodge everything with fat roll too
Well... for a while
well...if it doesn't lag at all
And well.....if the opponent is soo crappy loll
Sure you can dodge magic with a mid roll
But if you can't punish the mage after dodging it then whats the point?
after dodging one, you just end up being shoot by the second
and your health would be continue chipped away everytime it lags a little because of mid roll's crappy invincible frames.
if you attemp to dodge a light swing of a dex weapon, you proprably end up being hit twice because of the slow roll recovery
and not to mention every mid roll is a chance for BS punish
People in the games doesn ""prefer""" light roll
they do it because is it the only way to survive in pvp ((In most condition))

"every mid roll is a chance for BS punish" It's not. The problem here seems that you think only fast roll is viable, and based on that you make your opinions about BS and the rest. Mid roll is viable and Fat Roll depending the circumstances too. One of the things I told you is I can punish very easily with mid roll, and I even managed to win with fat roll. That doesn't mean I'm pro leetz skillz, it means it's possible.

And yes, people that fast roll, have an advantage as Backstabbing. Now, PLEASE, tell me, which people fast roll? Oh yeah, people that tend to sacrifice armor and sometimes even heavy weaponry (also known as WEIGHT) so they are able to fast roll. That is the group I'm talking about. That way people that want to sacrifice armor in exchange of speed have a tool to use, an advantage. That's why the DWGR was nerfed in the first place, so we wouldn't see anymore people walking in Giant's Armor fast rolling, because that didn't followed the rule I just said.

okay…my two copper coins

backstabbing is a useful mechanic in Souls for a variety of reasons, both from a PVE and a PVP perspective. backstabs have a place in combat and should remain a part of the Souls experience.

that said, the backstab mechanic could use a little tweaking to clean it up. the best solution would be to remove lag and 90% of the problem would go away. but that's not feasible so lets think of some ways to balance it out knowing that lag is a thing.

someone posted earlier that certain weapons should behave differently during a backstab. i think this is a good idea. all weapons should retain their abilities to backstab, but the critical bonus on certain types of weapons should be removed so that they would only do standard damage or at the most get a counter attack bonus. hornets ring should definitely not apply to said weapons. rapiers, daggers and the like should retain their critical bonus, as this is their main strength. weapons that have other qualities (such as stun locking, knockdown, bleed, etc.) should not have a critical bonus of any kind, because they have other advantages already built into them.

another tweak could be to reduce the window of opportunity to perform a backstab. instead of just having to break the shoulder you should have to be more or less squarely behind your victim. this would make backstab fishing more difficult by itself.

i also think that if your victim is locked on to you, you should not be able to score a back stab unless it is to counter an attack, to punish flasking or casting and the like. so none of this just running in for a pivot stab, unless your victim makes an error and does something other than back peddle.

also, when you are locked on to someone, the tracking on your target should be better than it currently is. being locked on should mean that you maintain you're facing with your opponent. so if they run past your shoulder, you should pivot so you are always facing them as long as you keep moving. initiating an attack should still root your feet in place though.

i don't think that having a shield on your back should be a defense against the possibility of eating a backstab. it may not be as realistic, but i don't think realism is the issue, it's about balance and what's fair.

rolling away from your opponent should be an auto escape from a backstab attempt. you should not be eligible for being backstabbed once you have initiated a roll escape.

after a successful backstab, the victim should get a few i-frames while they recover. just enough to allow them to standup and roll escape or pivot to face their opponent so that a chain stab cannot be performed.

i believe these small changes would reduce the ease of backstab fishing and make lag stabs harder to land. while ensuring that the mechanic is used how it was intended, as a punishment rather than as an exploit of its poor implementation.

ChizFreak wrote:"every mid roll is a chance for BS punish" It's not. The problem here seems that you think only fast roll is viable, and based on that you make your opinions about BS and the rest. Mid roll is viable and Fat Roll depending the circumstances too. One of the things I told you is I can punish very easily with mid roll, and I even managed to win with fat roll. That doesn't mean I'm pro leetz skillz, it means it's possible.

And yes, people that fast roll, have an advantage as Backstabbing. Now, PLEASE, tell me, which people fast roll? Oh yeah, people that tend to sacrifice armor and sometimes even heavy weaponry (also known as WEIGHT) so they are able to fast roll. That is the group I'm talking about. That way people that want to sacrifice armor in exchange of speed have a tool to use, an advantage. That's why the DWGR was nerfed in the first place, so we wouldn't see anymore people walking in Giant's Armor fast rolling, because that didn't followed the rule I just said.

i agree, and it should stay that way for the next Souls game.

There are frames after a bs where you can't be bsd as long as you don't touch a button or try to move.

Swinging a weapon only roots you during the swing animation, you are free to turn the wind up. (thus preventing and or punishing a bs attempt)

The piviot (and counter) bs work because of lag, otherwise the lock system works fine (usually) so simply reducing the hit box would mostly fix that issue

They can't bs you once you start a roll (excluding heavy lag) the bs detection is client based, so if you haven't started the roll on THEIR screen they can still bs you. I don't know the viability of any potential fixes for this.

ChizFreak wrote:

raphael1019 wrote:

ChizFreak wrote:

Rynn wrote:

Tomhet wrote:*sigh* More complaining :roll: Backstabs are useful for PvE, specially at low levels. Killing Havel without them would be extremely difficult. It's a feature I would hate to see removed.

My post goes over PvE. It's abused in PvE as well, and as it stands is a bad contribution to both PvE and PvP.

Killing Havel should be extremely difficult.

Yes, and it IS. Fight him with a "heavy" character, it would be a rock vs rock fight, that would either be: long because none takes fast damage or short because 3 hits and you're dead because of heavy weaponry. But because of BS fast characters with fast, light but low damaging weaponry have a chance. It's about variety and giving everyone a chance. I already said that I agree that heavy weapons should need a nerf when it comes to Backstabs.

And raphael1019, that's the point, there shouldn't be a way that "works against everything". Because that would make those selected group of people stronger. BS on the other hand can be done by anyone, but fast characters (which MUST sacrifice armor and most heavy weaponry to be fast) have an advantage in doing just that.

And I can dodge Crystal Spears, Crystal Homing Soul Mass, and Dark Bead, FAT rolling just fine, AND win. And I can tell you and I can dodge ANYTHING midrolling. I prefer to be speedy though so I tend to go fast rolling and no poise at all (because I don't like it very much). I go for the looks with when it comes to armor (mostly clothes in my case haha).

There is no such thing as a specific group having an advantage on rolling
because regardless of what weapon a guy choose to use, EVERYONE (Well, 98.99% ppl that I see in pvpv) FAST ROLL
And I would argue that "having a work against everything" solution that every build can use is a good thing
otherwise, the result of a fight would be highly dependent on builds (think mage vs great magic barrier)

And for the second part.............I mean .....seriously....

Do I really need to explain how MID ROLL and FAT ROLL S***?
I thought that was common sense, general knowledge, Newton first law, fact that could be stated in present tense with !!!at the end
I can dodge everything with fat roll too
Well... for a while
well...if it doesn't lag at all
And well.....if the opponent is soo crappy loll
Sure you can dodge magic with a mid roll
But if you can't punish the mage after dodging it then whats the point?
after dodging one, you just end up being shoot by the second
and your health would be continue chipped away everytime it lags a little because of mid roll's crappy invincible frames.
if you attemp to dodge a light swing of a dex weapon, you proprably end up being hit twice because of the slow roll recovery
and not to mention every mid roll is a chance for BS punish
People in the games doesn ""prefer""" light roll
they do it because is it the only way to survive in pvp ((In most condition))

"every mid roll is a chance for BS punish" It's not. The problem here seems that you think only fast roll is viable, and based on that you make your opinions about BS and the rest. Mid roll is viable and Fat Roll depending the circumstances too. One of the things I told you is I can punish very easily with mid roll, and I even managed to win with fat roll. That doesn't mean I'm pro leetz skillz, it means it's possible.

And yes, people that fast roll, have an advantage as Backstabbing. Now, PLEASE, tell me, which people fast roll? Oh yeah, people that tend to sacrifice armor and sometimes even heavy weaponry (also known as WEIGHT) so they are able to fast roll. That is the group I'm talking about. That way people that want to sacrifice armor in exchange of speed have a tool to use, an advantage. That's why the DWGR was nerfed in the first place, so we wouldn't see anymore people walking in Giant's Armor fast rolling, because that didn't followed the rule I just said.

I have no idea what we are discussing
I think Dark Soul PVP balance is perfect as is (including all bs, and spell
reading what you wrote, I don't see where we contradict

raphael1019 wrote:

ChizFreak wrote:

raphael1019 wrote:

ChizFreak wrote:

Rynn wrote:

Tomhet wrote:*sigh* More complaining :roll: Backstabs are useful for PvE, specially at low levels. Killing Havel without them would be extremely difficult. It's a feature I would hate to see removed.

My post goes over PvE. It's abused in PvE as well, and as it stands is a bad contribution to both PvE and PvP.

Killing Havel should be extremely difficult.

Yes, and it IS. Fight him with a "heavy" character, it would be a rock vs rock fight, that would either be: long because none takes fast damage or short because 3 hits and you're dead because of heavy weaponry. But because of BS fast characters with fast, light but low damaging weaponry have a chance. It's about variety and giving everyone a chance. I already said that I agree that heavy weapons should need a nerf when it comes to Backstabs.

And raphael1019, that's the point, there shouldn't be a way that "works against everything". Because that would make those selected group of people stronger. BS on the other hand can be done by anyone, but fast characters (which MUST sacrifice armor and most heavy weaponry to be fast) have an advantage in doing just that.

And I can dodge Crystal Spears, Crystal Homing Soul Mass, and Dark Bead, FAT rolling just fine, AND win. And I can tell you and I can dodge ANYTHING midrolling. I prefer to be speedy though so I tend to go fast rolling and no poise at all (because I don't like it very much). I go for the looks with when it comes to armor (mostly clothes in my case haha).

There is no such thing as a specific group having an advantage on rolling
because regardless of what weapon a guy choose to use, EVERYONE (Well, 98.99% ppl that I see in pvpv) FAST ROLL
And I would argue that "having a work against everything" solution that every build can use is a good thing
otherwise, the result of a fight would be highly dependent on builds (think mage vs great magic barrier)

And for the second part.............I mean .....seriously....

Do I really need to explain how MID ROLL and FAT ROLL S***?
I thought that was common sense, general knowledge, Newton first law, fact that could be stated in present tense with !!!at the end
I can dodge everything with fat roll too
Well... for a while
well...if it doesn't lag at all
And well.....if the opponent is soo crappy loll
Sure you can dodge magic with a mid roll
But if you can't punish the mage after dodging it then whats the point?
after dodging one, you just end up being shoot by the second
and your health would be continue chipped away everytime it lags a little because of mid roll's crappy invincible frames.
if you attemp to dodge a light swing of a dex weapon, you proprably end up being hit twice because of the slow roll recovery
and not to mention every mid roll is a chance for BS punish
People in the games doesn ""prefer""" light roll
they do it because is it the only way to survive in pvp ((In most condition))

"every mid roll is a chance for BS punish" It's not. The problem here seems that you think only fast roll is viable, and based on that you make your opinions about BS and the rest. Mid roll is viable and Fat Roll depending the circumstances too. One of the things I told you is I can punish very easily with mid roll, and I even managed to win with fat roll. That doesn't mean I'm pro leetz skillz, it means it's possible.

And yes, people that fast roll, have an advantage as Backstabbing. Now, PLEASE, tell me, which people fast roll? Oh yeah, people that tend to sacrifice armor and sometimes even heavy weaponry (also known as WEIGHT) so they are able to fast roll. That is the group I'm talking about. That way people that want to sacrifice armor in exchange of speed have a tool to use, an advantage. That's why the DWGR was nerfed in the first place, so we wouldn't see anymore people walking in Giant's Armor fast rolling, because that didn't followed the rule I just said.

I have no idea what we are discussing
I think Dark Soul PVP balance is perfect as is (including all bs, and spell
reading what you wrote, I don't see where we contradict

I think that it should be tested (by the devs) whether or not Heavy weapons should have their backstab critical ratio decreased, because IMO heavy weapons shouldn't make as much damage backstabbing as light weapons backstabbing do.

But that's a minor point to satiate a minor detail I think it's would help variety in PvP. To be honest I believe the game is almost perfect (except for that tiny detail I mentioned) and fun as it is.

Forum Pirate: Ahh I always thought it was weird I could get backstabbed out of a roll, if it's just lag then that's fine. Well It's not... stupid lag..

I think backstabs can be fun in PvE, if implemented correctly. I made a post about adding a stealth mode for the next game, it's in DkS 2 section check it out!

Shameless plug is shameless, lol. If they just changed bsing back to how it worked in demons I'd be cool. Stealth attack and idiot punish.

Hahahahaha

PlasticandRage wrote:I'm getting so sick of seeing these threads. I felt the same way for awhile, then I learned to effectively BS counter, thanks Rant, credit where it's due, and now I actually kind of like it. There are all these players out there, who think they're amazing at the game because they can BS fish well, and I love fighting them now. I never BS unless it's countering a BS attempt, and I've been BSing a lot lately.

I wouldn't mind if it stuck around in the next souls game, but I'd be happy to see its window shrank enough to not be able to abuse at all.

Did Rant write a treatise on this? Link?

To fix backstabs, simply make it so that backstabs, if performed while your victim has a lock on you, do maybe 30% less damage, unless you have a crit weapon(rapier, dagger-family). Make unlocked backstabs preferable for assassination, with reg weapons doing regular damage, while crit weapons get maybe a 15% bonus for an "assassination." Heavy weapons get a permanent 30-35% backstab nerf, no matter what.

While I agree with heavy weapons getting a bs nerf, leave the riposte damage alone. If you get parried and slammed with a heavy weapon, you deserve to be flat-out annihilated.

Also, make the bs animation worthwhile and funny to watch. Backstabs and ripostes with the Great Scythe are stupid. I mean seriously.

And maybe when you backstab someone with your bare hands, if locked on, you do a double-ear-slap disorientation attack!(Basically a stun) With an "assassination" barehanded, you do a neck break, to reward the balls of someone who goes stealth mode with no weapons. I don't know about everyone else, but I personally wouldn't mind to see myself get neck-snapped for a OHKO.

Without a proper stealth system (which we don't have) nobody would ever land a bs and magic spam would be nearly impossible to stop.

As I said, reduced hitbox would fix just about everybodys problem. Suddenly it only works from stealth or on people who make big mistakes.

Reduced damage for heavy weapon bsing? As in less than a regular hit? Are you kidding me? If I get a surprise attack with a dagger you might die, if i get a surprise attack with a greathammer you're so dead it isn't even funny. Your head will occupy the same space as both your knees and your stomach.

Forgive me for not clarifying:

By x% of total damage I meant standard backstab damage. A backstab would still do more than a regular attack, but it won't be ridiculous.

But I see where you are going, Pirate. A suprise(!) DGH smash should make guts fly.

Stealth could be implemented if stuff actually made you invisible to the enemy, like in DeS.

And you are completely right, making the bs hitbox smaller should solve most of the problem.

There are 2 factors that cannot be changed: lag and the community.

Driveby Post!

Next Dark Souls game, high damage backstabs removed from PVP.

If you are hot stuff... then lets see some parry parry riposte action!
I wouldn’t mind seeing some grapple options though, that is a big part of real life weapon combat.

May even out things, and keep everyone on their toes.

Throw = Normal Damage, two types, each escapable with good reflexes. so 50% chance for escape.
Works for fighting games, why not Dark Souls =P

Let me commend everyone for a civil discussion on a controversial topic. I've read every post in this thread and I'm very impressed at the well thought out and constructive approach everyone has taken to the topic.



But given the quality of the community here I'm not suprised. Impressed, but not surprised.

Forum Pirate wrote:There are frames after a bs where you can't be bsd as long as you don't touch a button or try to move.

yes, this is true, but i believe the i-frames should allow for someone to roll away after being backstabbed and not just stand there leaving you open to eat what could very likely be the finishing blow after having your hit points sapped away by backstab.

Forum Pirate wrote:Swinging a weapon only roots you during the swing animation, you are free to turn the wind up. (thus preventing and or punishing a bs attempt) The piviot (and counter) bs work because of lag, otherwise the lock system works fine (usually) so simply reducing the hit box would mostly fix that issue

because it's not that hard to simply break some ones shoulder for an easy backstab, even if your victim is back peddling. which can be attributed to lag to some degree as well as the huge backstab window that currently exists. my thought was that as long as your victim keeps moving away from you while locked on they would be impossible to backstab. this could be accomplished by improving the tracking of the target you are locked onto, currently, the attacker seems to have the advantage because they can pivot faster than their victim.

Forum Pirate wrote:They can't bs you once you start a roll (excluding heavy lag) the bs detection is client based, so if you haven't started the roll on THEIR screen they can still bs you. I don't know the viability of any potential fixes for this.

this is also true to a point, it is my belief that as long as you are in the roll animation you can be backstabbed from the point where you started, not from where you end up. this is what creates that vacuum effect. i've tested this (in a limited way) and it seems that you can be sucked into a backstabbed at any point during a roll as long the backstabber is at the spot you left from and they have waited long enough for the i-frames to expire (as they don;t last the entire length of the roll). however, if they attempt a backstab during the i-frames the attempt will fail. of course lag and client side hit detection must have something to do with this but it's because of this lag effect that i think that you should be immune to backstabs at any point during the roll animation not just during the i-frames. it might create the illusion of having less lag, at least in this instance anyway.

not being a programmer i'm just making assumptions based on what i've experienced. so i might just be thinking about this completely wrong. but Dark must have changed the way this mechanic worked because this was not an issue in Demon's to my knowledge and Demon's suffered from just as much lag at times. i'm just saying that what ever they were doing in Demon's should probably be brought back…whatever that was.

Does anyone realize there are essentially two types of backstab in dark souls?
When you are hit in your backside you take more damage, you take a critical hit. That in any game would likely be called a backstab.
The only thing that makes things silly is the "cool looking" animation they decided to use for the actual designated "backstabbing". If there really is a need to backstab with style, then they should have created a gaming environment that supports such ideas.(Having a cutscene thingy breaks the idea) Imagine something like that impact system for fifa, but something similar in dark souls. I mean dark souls is already known for it's skill based gameplay.

Unfortunately this issue is not something we can solve, because individual human beings do not better themselves.
If they find a way to win, their selfishness will allow them to use that method and feel great about it.
And that's exactly the problem here. People who play video games, mostly online. Will want to win, the need to win is great.
And for that reason someone will knowingly abuse a system that may have had different intentions when it was created. Since those intentions do not matter to the individual, if they can find another way to use it to win more easily, they will do so.

It's a bit hard to expect it to get better on either side, I mean. Game companies are also in it for the money and individuals don't have much incentive to better themselves. All I can say is, have fun figuring out this dilemma ^^

~Vorcan~

I've played Dark Souls offline for the first few months after it got released, so I jumped on the PvP bandvagon a bit late. By then, everybody was backstabing the out of me and I had NO idea what to do about it. I didn't use bs in PvE at all, only ripostes, so I had next to no idea how to do them.

My very first win in PvP was by backstab. DW invaded me in Parish with Demon Spear. I was all legit and clean and with no PvP skills I had no chance against him, but I sumoned phantoms, that inevitably died while trying to protect me, but then the invader did a fatal mistake. Perhaps he though I was something more than a guy who dies to Baldurs twenty times in a row and attampted unlocked R2 with Demon Spear. Even with his back facing me, with some two steps away from backstab, it took me so much time to actually move and do it, that he was almost done with the animation after the attack. But I did it. He survived with a tiny HP left, but as I bs'ed him, I also kicked him down from the balcony where the Channeler is and he died thanks to the fall damage.

Later he messaged me "You pathetic backstabber!"

I'm telling you this story, because thanks to this encounter I developed an aversion to backstabs. Backstabing when the opponent does something silly, like healing, casting something long etc, is fine with me. But fishing for bs and building your entire battle strategy around it is wrong if you ask me.

When I started PvPing I lost more than 9/10 of my matches, simply because people backstabbed me and I had no idea how to defend myself.

So I started to bs people, to learn how it all works. When the evil deed was done, I knew how to defend against bs, but felt like a douchebag for bsing so many players...

While I was doing so, I thought of many, MANY ways to remove, nerf, replace, edit etc backstabs in general, but then it hit me like a Greataxe.

Instead of putting an effort into coming up with ways on how to change backstabs, I should put the effort into accepting them. I did and since then, they pose no problem for me at all, even if I still loathe players, that revovle all their tactics and playstyles around backstabs.

You are right, Sentiel. +1

EeAyEss wrote:You are right, Sentiel. +1

That's what I'm always saying.
Thanks .

I can't even begin to describe how using an effective tactic built into the game is, in no way, morally wrong. Thats a ridiculous statement.

It's not wrong. It's in there. BUT it isn't fun to some people, including me, to be backstabbed constantly. That's prety much why people hate backstabs. It's not FUN. Which is the point of the game. To have FUN.

But then we have counter techniques which the noobs can't use to counter bs's so they complain. (I am also one of them lol. Can someone on psn tutor me over the holidays?)

So? Its not fun for me to get demolished by spears, should spears not be in game either? Or should I work to overcome my deficiency so that I may have fun. Its pvp, if you don't work for your fun you won't get any. Thats an almost universal rule.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsp6k4830a0 hope that helps.

Forgive me forum. I meant that backstabs aren't wrong and shouldn't be taken out. We just need to, like you said, work to have our fun in pvp. Learning to counter backstabs and spears are all a part of "working for our fun"