Japanese people telling it how it is.

That's why I was a forest hunter. I had that moral highground, in a non-serious video game, and had to fight three people at once. So it was challenging to me. Eventually I'd kill the gankers most of the time, so it got really boring. I then went over to try my hand at dueling and got into that scene since I wasn't as good at it. Once I got a bit decent at dueling to where I would beat most random duelists, not the real pros but the randoms, I went onto focusing more on Co-Op. For Dark Souls I just try to switch what I'm doing constantly so things stay fresh. Forest Hunting was really the only case where I could say, if there were forest hunting competitions I could go pro. But god damn would that be silly.

"Alright we have three gankers set up. The last person beat them in .56 seconds, see how fast you can do it."

KrazykevS10 wrote:Whether it would actually work is not the point.The point is having skill requires you to actually win by skillful means,not cheap or easy ones.

Skill is irrelevant, all that matters is whether is was a good or a bad battle and even that's subjective. I say this because I've had plenty of fun times fighting dirty, fighting people playing dirty and playing sloppy. I personally don't care how anyone plays I just want to be satisfied at the end of it.

Saturday-Saint wrote:

Rynn wrote:

Kokujin wrote:"I've never considered myself weak, if I did, it would be discourteous to all the players I've beaten"

Oh yes, That's going in my signature, he has some great philosophical points even if I think he's got a **** opinion.

That was actually written by KSK. Kokujin was quoting what KSK had written. It's from some foreword he wrote for a Street Fighter strategy guide probably over a decade ago. Also as a random note, that throw chain at 2:06 is probably like the least scary thing you can do after knockdowns in Street Fighter 4. There are set-ups after a knockdown where to get out of them literally you have to tap block with 1/60th of a second timing or you get combo'd for 1/3rd of your health and get knocked back down. Also, in simplified terms, there's basically a 50% chance more-or-less random chance that your block just won't work even if you time it right and you get combo'd anyways. And this is 100% tournament legal.

I thought Kokujin was his real name, and KSK was his tourney name, my apologies, and fixed my sig.

SF4 doesn't sound like a game I'd play competitively then. There is no fun to be had in a fight that is determined literally by who hits who first: and if all both players are doing is trying to get that first hit to combo your opponent, it sounds like a lot of fights end in "Perfect KO's"... why not just play flycatcher than? You've taken all the game has to offer and devolved it down to the same *** concept.(An old arcade game were you attempt to press A before your opponent can, after the fly appears. If you press A first, you win.)

There's nothing wrong with the play to win mentality. There IS something wrong with the "you can't have fun if you don't win" mentality.

My favorite part was the not adding rules to a game that already has rules. You're free to do as you like in the game.

And then of course the winning vs. fun argument started.

Look if you're perfectly happy losing fights you could have won if you stopped being stubborn and pulled out a spear, or attuned dark bead over a CSS or BS punished a greatsword ect.ect. That's fine with me.

Do not complain at me because I'm not so complacent. If I should choose to do whatever it takes to win, no matter the means (excluding glitches, which btw a fair bit of them are considered standard fare...toggles DAs what made dragon head worse? honestly I think toggle is right out unacceptable, it gives ~ infinty poise with no drawback, being stunned is merely a thing of the past. but I digress)

I'm not going to run around and force people to play like me, don't you dare even try to make me play like you.

SKS is a baller btw. anything to win, he's been known to outright laugh at opponents who grumbled complaints after a match. Notably in one third strike tourney a player said "this cheap guy keeps crossing me up I couldn't win" SKS's response was "Bwahahaha I am so glad to be the cheap guy that eliminates you from this event"

Jansports wrote:honestly I think toggle is right out unacceptable, it gives ~ infinty poise with no drawback, being stunned is merely a thing of the past. but I digress)

I second this. Yesterday in my stream someone stunlocked me for 12 blows in a row until I died. Someone typed in chat (Toggle Escape, Rynn?) which I responded to with "I'm not gonna yell at someone else for it, but Toggle Exploit is an exploit and I refuse to do it."

Generally I don't mind if people don't play by the same rules. Once I even invaded someone and their phantom as a darkmoon, saw that they were busy with some mobs, waited for them to finish, then bowed before the fight. They bowed back. And then they both attacked me. And I didn't mind at all.

I usually avoid using backstabs too, even though everyone else is obviously using them a lot.

What does bother me, however, is when I place a RSS, and someone summons me and then spawn ganks me with their buddy phantom. That's just retarded -.-

Rynn wrote:

SF4 doesn't sound like a game I'd play competitively then. There is no fun to be had in a fight that is determined literally by who hits who first: and if all both players are doing is trying to get that first hit to combo your opponent, it sounds like a lot of fights end in "Perfect KO's"... why not just play flycatcher than? You've taken all the game has to offer and devolved it down to the same *** concept.(An old arcade game were you attempt to press A before your opponent can, after the fly appears. If you press A first, you win.)

This is why I find Toggle Lock to be acceptable.

Tolvo wrote:

Rynn wrote:

SF4 doesn't sound like a game I'd play competitively then. There is no fun to be had in a fight that is determined literally by who hits who first: and if all both players are doing is trying to get that first hit to combo your opponent, it sounds like a lot of fights end in "Perfect KO's"... why not just play flycatcher than? You've taken all the game has to offer and devolved it down to the same *** concept.(An old arcade game were you attempt to press A before your opponent can, after the fly appears. If you press A first, you win.)

This is why I find Toggle Lock to be acceptable.

If poise did not exist, I'd agree, but we have other defenses against stunlocking, which is poise. any poise value above 53 stops you from being stunlocked forever, if you have lower than 53, you are taking a risk, and your punishment for failing that risk is to be stunlocked.

Greatswords were nerfed because they were too easy to stunlock with: curved greatswords have a longer windup on the swing and were as such more permissable for stunlocking.

I'd say if infinite stunlocking wasn't possible, then I'd be more so fine without toggling out of locks. 1-3 stuns in a row I'd be cool with. Four though is pushing the limit for me.

infinite Stunlocking is only possible if you don't have the minimum poise requirements though. If you have 53 poise, then you recover from the stun after 3 hits, including the initial hit. Since it takes 1 hit to break your poise, that's 4 hits totaling 1600 HP on average. Quite a nasty wound, but that's what you got for letting yourself get hit twice in a row. if you have lower than the 53 poise though, you can get infinitely stunlocked, but that was the price for your folly. I don't feel Dark Souls has a justifiable case for the Toggle Escape because systems are in place that do it's job in an intended manner, and with Greatswords being nerfed, it's not fair to claim you need a method to escape it when, unless you pack less than 53 poise, they person had to put quite some effort (or you had to *** up) into getting you stunned in the first place, and deserved the damage they are about to put out.

Even without poise, I still think you shouldn't get infinitely stunlocked in my book. Now, perhaps should they get stunned longer? I can see that as a good trade off. Or perhaps increasing the damage they take further when stunned. I just really hate stunlocking in games, because it sort of just feels like you are waiting for them to kill you already while you have no control at the moment. It just doesn't feel right.

I'm a fan of stunning causing the player to stumble backwards, which results in them eventually stumbling out of range, but if the feature, or something similar, isn't in the game, I tend to feel the developers intended stun locking to be a part of the game.

I think toggle escape in fine because relying on stunlocks is just playing crap.If I stun anyone with my claymore or halberd,I hit them twice and simply roll away.Where is the challenge if you just land a hit or two and have an instant win?I honestly think poise should be less of an issue to the point where stunning gets you ONE free hit.
My point is,even if you are only hit twice with a strength weapon instead of stunlocked to death,half of your health is gone.Though I wouldn't mind stunlock if not for everyone with the rediculously wide sweeps of the derphander and claymore,I'd laugh if I was stunned by a reinforced club or blacksmith hammer but I never ever see them used.

Adapt and improve is all i have to say. If they get stunlocked, it's their own fault. Toggle escaping isn't game-breaking, it actually makes the fight all the more challenging.

Pushing back out of a stun is another thing I would find acceptable. Or similar to some attacks, enough times hit and you get knocked to the ground and can stand up, giving you a chance to escape.

Jansports wrote:Look if you're perfectly happy losing fights you could have won if you stopped being stubborn and pulled out a spear, or attuned dark bead over a CSS or BS punished a greatsword ect.ect. That's fine with me.

Do not complain at me because I'm not so complacent.

I agree with this, but

Jansports wrote:toggles DAs what made dragon head worse? honestly I think toggle is right out unacceptable, it gives ~ infinty poise with no drawback

Is this a for real question, or some sort of weird rhetoric you're throwing out there? Because there are like really big differences between Dragon Head and most accepted glitches that made people hate it. Like infinite inescapable stunlocking with practically 0 start-up from lock-on range. Dead Angle and Toggle Escape are extremely tame compared to that.

Jansports wrote:I'm not going to run around and force people to play like me, don't you dare even try to make me play like you.

SKS is a baller btw. anything to win, he's been known to outright laugh at opponents who grumbled complaints after a match. Notably in one third strike tourney a player said "this cheap guy keeps crossing me up I couldn't win" SKS's response was "Bwahahaha I am so glad to be the cheap guy that eliminates you from this event"

Back to agreeing (I didn't know the SKS thing but it's cool).

I also think there should be something to prevent an infinite stunlock, oh wait there is it's poise!

Personally I think hits during a stun should be counter hits (big ol damage) but also hits during a stun should do no poise damage, Imagining it like the poison bar and Btown. Once you're stunned(poisoned) no matter how much you get hit (walk around the swamp) the bar doesn't refill it's still emptying out at it's pre-determined rate.

@ Saturday. My Biggest issue is that Toggle is certainly unintended (there were dead angles in DeS so I can't be sure they were not left in DaS on purpose) AND on top of that there is literally a stat on your character pane that serves the same purpose. How much poise do you need to not get stunlocked by a Mura? ZERO. This glitch by itself pushes a stat to be useless. Or rather toggling allows you to act as though you had more of "stat" than you actually do. This to me is in the same vein as spellswaping as most commonly it is used to cast spells you don't have enough " stat" to cast or it's used in a manner to artificially inflate a "stat" (Madj) Toggling in this same manner allows you to act as though you have stats you didn't invest in, And artificially inflate a particular stat for you.

Jansports wrote:I also think there should be something to prevent an infinite stunlock, oh wait there is it's poise!

Personally I think hits during a stun should be counter hits (big ol damage) but also hits during a stun should do no poise damage, Imagining it like the poison bar and Btown. Once you're stunned(poisoned) no matter how much you get hit (walk around the swamp) the bar doesn't refill it's still emptying out at it's pre-determined rate.

@ Saturday. My Biggest issue is that Toggle is certainly unintended (there were dead angles in DeS so I can't be sure they were not left in DaS on purpose) AND on top of that there is literally a stat on your character pane that serves the same purpose. How much poise do you need to not get stunlocked by a Mura? ZERO. This glitch by itself pushes a stat to be useless. Or rather toggling allows you to act as though you had more of "stat" than you actually do. This to me is in the same vein as spellswaping as most commonly it is used to cast spells you don't have enough " stat" to cast or it's used in a manner to artificially inflate a "stat" (Madj) Toggling in this same manner allows you to act as though you have stats you didn't invest in, And artificially inflate a particular stat for you.

Using Wrath of the Gods I can PROVE that dead angles are an intentional feature: Dead Angling isn't possible against NPC's. NPC's can however unintentionally toggle-switch if you hit them at the perfect timing. That leads one to notice Toggle as a Bug, and Dead Angling as an intentional player interaction, much like how your weapon doesn't bounce off a players shield intentionally, while it does with NPC's.

I like having fun, and in Dark Souls fun for me means winning. I don't use what I consider "cheap" purely because that's not fun to me.
My attitude is comparable to the Drake Sword, it'll liquidize most anything early game, it's easy, and I'm sure if those poor hollow soldiers were players they'd consider it pretty unfair. But the Drake Sword is a huge crutch for the new player, and as the game progresses it becomes much less useful as it doesn't scale. Now think of scaling as a player's skill level, and the Drake Sword as whatever you consider cheap or unfair in PVP, you might win a lot of fights, but you won't be any better for it in the end, while the guy running around with a +0 Scimitar for a while will probably have picked up quite a bit more experience.

I enjoy crushing my opponents, but I enjoy crushing them without exploiting certain game mechanics.

As for toggle escape, I'll do it all day long, because why would I let some guy who R1 spams with a Gold Tracer win? It doesn't help either of us.

Toggle escape was in Demon's Souls. FROM certainly knows about it and certainly had many opportunities to remove it and for uncertain reasons decided not to and we certainly don't need to care. Whether the developer intended for something to be in their game isn't really important. I don't see any reason to distinguish between things based on whether or not we think they are glitches.

And the notion that poise is useless because of toggle escape is ridiculous. I'm not really sure how to respond to it. I mean, feel however you want about toggle escape, the assertion that it makes poise useless is insane.

Rynn wrote:Using Wrath of the Gods I can PROVE that dead angles are an intentional feature: Dead Angling isn't possible against NPC's. NPC's can however unintentionally toggle-switch if you hit them at the perfect timing. That leads one to notice Toggle as a Bug, and Dead Angling as an intentional player interaction, much like how your weapon doesn't bounce off a players shield intentionally, while it does with NPC's.

I cannot follow this logic, but for the record, dead angling doesn't work on NPC's because it only works due to a difference in how blocking is detected in PvP. They don't have any kind of special immunity or whatever.

Saturday-Saint wrote:

Rynn wrote:Using Wrath of the Gods I can PROVE that dead angles are an intentional feature: Dead Angling isn't possible against NPC's. NPC's can however unintentionally toggle-switch if you hit them at the perfect timing. That leads one to notice Toggle as a Bug, and Dead Angling as an intentional player interaction, much like how your weapon doesn't bounce off a players shield intentionally, while it does with NPC's.

I cannot follow this logic, but for the record, dead angling doesn't work on NPC's because it only works due to a difference in how blocking is detected in PvP. They don't have any kind of special immunity or whatever.

Blocking detects what angle you are standing at from your opponent, that's why Wrath Dead Angles by giving your opponent your back, This is the same reason hitting with other weapons from more than 90 degree's works. The game uses the same reasoning for NPC's as players, and so if Dead Angling wasn't intentional, than it would work against an NPC as well. Different mechanics are used on players and NPC's, such as shield deflection, and this is not by mistake.

In a world where there is hacking,bead and wrath spam,ganking,spawn killing,chainstabbing and heal spam,how is toggle escape that bad?You have to be hit twice to do it so you don't exactly gain an advantage(I wouldn't agree with a toggle parry,that is just abusing it).I think stunlock should be replaced by knockdown for greatswords and bigger weapons like how wrath does when you have low poise.Not sure what to do with smaller weapons though.And to prevent abusing the knockdown,a short period of backstab immunity right after getting up.

KrazykevS10 wrote:In a world where there is hacking,bead and wrath spam,ganking,spawn killing,chainstabbing and heal spam,how is toggle escape that bad?You have to be hit twice to do it so you don't exactly gain an advantage(I wouldn't agree with a toggle parry,that is just abusing it).I think stunlock should be replaced by knockdown for greatswords and bigger weapons like how wrath does when you have low poise.Not sure what to do with smaller weapons though.And to prevent abusing the knockdown,a short period of backstab immunity right after getting up.

It is very possible to toggle the first hit.