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    The Search for Lore

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    Post by WyrmHero Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:26 am

    I completely misread it. Now I understand it. When the Chaos was born, the humanoid beings transformed to Taurus, Capra, Tree Demons. It's a interesting theory. I can't wait your post about who is the First Firekeeper. Sorry for misunderstanding.
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    Post by User Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:29 am

    That's after the next post to explain the rest. It is obvious... But I feel irritated by it. Trying to probe it wrong before I actually post it, first.
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    Post by DoughGuy Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:52 am

    Acidic, after your post I must ask you if you believe these findings support my theory that there were 4 sons of chaos, the three tree demons and kirk?
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    Post by User Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:35 am

    Mm, sorry. It only mentions the son of chaos, not 'a'. I know the Demon's are unique, but their could be more of them out their, causing chaos for the world of men. Of course the black knits are also seen across the world as well. The Asylum is a somewhat example.

    Do not worry, the next post will tell the rest. You should understand the function of an important element, before the rest of it is told.
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    Post by Tolvo Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:25 am

    I'm still quite curious about those two bodies out in the lava that carry two Divine Blessings.
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    Post by User Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:27 am

    Tolvo wrote:I'm still quite curious about those two bodies out in the lava that carry two Divine Blessings.

    The corpses that I have seen show themselves as male, as I could not find that strap of a bra, as the female corpses usually have to identify it. As their are many corpses with heroes and brave knights and warriors, it can be said that the two were warriors that were followers of Gwynevre, or the Way of White.
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    Post by hortator Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:28 am

    "Demon catalyst formed from Izalith molten rock. Can be used as fire weapon.
    The Demon Firesage was the first demon, and the last master of the original fire arts before the Witch of Izalith was engulfed by Chaos, creating pyromancy."

    From the demon's catalyst description.

    I think this means he existed before the bed of chaos was created. Not that it makes any sense, it confuses the hell out of me. But the description is right there.
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    Post by Tolvo Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:33 am

    I've always read that as he was the latest master of pyromancy before the Chaos flame was created and altered him like it possibly did the dragon legs.

    I was examining quite a few bodies as well, though with the lighting in that area it is brutal. I remember those two were definitely male, the gold hemmed body was female, and the corpse above the bonfire before the bed of chaos was female. Other than that, my eyes were blinded by a mixture of bright orange and red.
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    Post by hortator Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:37 am

    This is what I'm thinking:

    "and the last master of the original fire arts before the Witch of Izalith was engulfed by Chaos, creating pyromancy."

    So, evidently the demon practiced the flame sorceries mentioned by the Catalyst of Izalith's description. Meaning, he practiced the same magic that the witches did. "and the last master" makes me think he was the LAST of the witches to learn fire soceries, because after this, they were all engulfed. I think this furthers the possibility that the demon is a son of Chaos. I'm gonna make a bridge and speculate that he was the one to have dropped the orange charred ring. Why does he look like other demons? Maybe because that's just what demon's look like. It could be that he was human-form (such as the witches), until the flame turned him, and some others, into similar demons.

    IDK.
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    Post by User Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:40 am

    it does not state that the Firesage existed, it just simply states that the art of Fire Sorcery was mastered last by the Demon. Now the question is, whether or not the Daughters of Chaos and the Witch of Izalith were immediately transformed by the Chaos Flame when created, or later on in time. It never defines as they were changed by it immediately, but they were transformed by it, none the less. The Art still exists, as the Stray Demons shows as such. Although, he is not the master. it does not mean that the creature was created before hand, it states that the Flame Sorcery was the last one to master it, before pyrmoancy was born from the birth of the Chaos Flame

    I said that the things that are not answered will be posted soon. My Ipod is not the greatest form of communication. Give it time, I will have free time to write the second post about the Chaos Flame and such.
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    Post by hortator Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:19 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:it does not state that the Firesage existed, it just simply states that the art of Fire Sorcery was mastered last by the Demon.
    . . . Although, he is not the master. it does not mean that the creature was created before hand, it states that the Flame Sorcery was the last one to master it, before pyrmoancy was born from the birth of the Chaos Flame

    > The Demon Firesage was the first demon, and the last master of the original fire arts BEFORE the witch of izalith ...

    I disagree. It sounds exactly to me like he existed. Pyromancy was created after the flame of chaos engulfed the witches. The surviving witches were the first ones to learn pyromancy. (Quelaan/Quelana). The Firesage practices fire magic, as the catalyst explains. It also explains that he was the last master BEFORE they were engulfed.

    The catalyst of izalith also says:

    " Before the birth of pyromancy, their wands were mediums for sorcery, but knowledge of this flame sorcery has long since vanished."

    > before the birth of pyromancy, their wands were mediums for sorcery.

    The demon firesage's catalyst is a medium for fire sorcery. This means that his catalyst came before pyromancy was created/the chaos flame engulfed everyone.

    I think, considering he was "the last master of the original fire arts BEFORE the Witch of Izalith was engulfed by chaos", his wand was a medium for fire sorcery "BEFORE the birth of pyromancy", I think it's fairly conclusive to assume that the demon existed before the chaos flame engulfed everyone. Perhaps he was human/a god and turned demon afterwards. IDK.

    I just think it's a little less complicated than "it does not mean that the creature was created before hand, it states that the Flame Sorcery was the last one to master it"
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    Post by User Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:15 pm

    I said before that the humanoid demons, including the tree demons, were possibly humans that were transformed by the Chaos Flame. The Demons existed when the flame began... but the Firesage could have existed before such a time. That is to say, the Firesage was once human (or similar to that of the Flame Witches). as the art was used before hand, the Firesage could have been a trainee of the Witch of Izalith and the Daughters of Chaos. Similar to that of King Jeremiah (as he uses chaos flame, and his identity proves that he is, or was, part of the Chaos Covenant).

    if that were true, than it does prove that such Humanoid Demons did come from humans, that were transformed similar to that of the Daughters of Chaos and the Witch herself.

    Like I said, I will explain more soon. And I finally got a computer for free time. Let us hope that their is no crashes this time.
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    Post by WyrmHero Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:24 pm

    hortator wrote:
    Acidic_Cook wrote:it does not state that the Firesage existed, it just simply states that the art of Fire Sorcery was mastered last by the Demon.
    . . . Although, he is not the master. it does not mean that the creature was created before hand, it states that the Flame Sorcery was the last one to master it, before pyrmoancy was born from the birth of the Chaos Flame

    > The Demon Firesage was the first demon, and the last master of the original fire arts BEFORE the witch of izalith ...

    I disagree. It sounds exactly to me like he existed. Pyromancy was created after the flame of chaos engulfed the witches. The surviving witches were the first ones to learn pyromancy. (Quelaan/Quelana). The Firesage practices fire magic, as the catalyst explains. It also explains that he was the last master BEFORE they were engulfed.

    The catalyst of izalith also says:

    " Before the birth of pyromancy, their wands were mediums for sorcery, but knowledge of this flame sorcery has long since vanished."

    > before the birth of pyromancy, their wands were mediums for sorcery.

    The demon firesage's catalyst is a medium for fire sorcery. This means that his catalyst came before pyromancy was created/the chaos flame engulfed everyone.

    I think, considering he was "the last master of the original fire arts BEFORE the Witch of Izalith was engulfed by chaos", his wand was a medium for fire sorcery "BEFORE the birth of pyromancy", I think it's fairly conclusive to assume that the demon existed before the chaos flame engulfed everyone. Perhaps he was human/a god and turned demon afterwards. IDK.

    I just think it's a little less complicated than "it does not mean that the creature was created before hand, it states that the Flame Sorcery was the last one to master it"



    Yeah I think it is very confusing the fact that he existed before pyromancy was created. But I have to agree to what Acid said. When the Witch created the Chaos Flame, the Bed of Chaos is born, and Demons are spawned from it. Over time, the witch tried to be some kind of Firekeeper of this Chaos Flame, but as it was corrupted it began to transform everyone trying to manipulate it to Chaos Demons. As this Time lapsed, the newborn Demons were learning all sorts of things, and the Demon Firesage, BEFORE the Chaos Flame transformed the witches, was the Last one to learn the Flame Sorceries.
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    Post by User Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:03 pm

    The second part is here, the plate is set, and the views come and go. We shall see where it leads us.

    26. The Flaming Depths

    Now that the flame has been clarified, it can be easier for you to understand the rest of the lore, in terms of the world of chaos. Such chaos transform and created the demons from both object and being, as well as create the possessed that horde blighttown, such as the barbarians, the morphed ghouls, and the Bugs that are similar to that of the centaur witches, in the sense that they are human (yes, they have a head thing), and the rest are morphed to a bug of sorts (similar to that of the Witch of Izalith itself). As it seems, the Chaos favours nature. We can see why natural arts are a definition of the Pyromancy Flame, as the many creatures created from the Chaos are that of natural appearance in a sense. Their is nothing natural about looking at these things, but the features and such in which the people were transformed to says as much.

    The Witches and the Daughters, of course, have been known to channel the Flames of Disparity a different method, before the art of pyromancy was created to allow the use of upholding the powers of both flames with the content of it. Instead, they used the Catalyst, the Izalith Catalysts. These Catalysts are, to an extent, similar to that of the Bonfire Sword of the Twisted. As the Swords of Disparity allow the Bonfires to function, as well as create time distortion and rejuvenation/reincarnation, the Izalith Catalysts were more so to channel and use the flame to use as a weapon. Instead of it being created for those of needed rest, it was created for those to bring the power of the flame to engulf enemies with it, in which the Witch of Izalith and her daughters engulfed the world as such. Such a way, holding a catalyst of Izalith holds a somewhat special artifact that is now useless in the arts, as the now simplistic Pyromancy Flame allows the wielders to use the power of both Chaos and Disparity in their clutches, and such terms of it also connecting to the Flame of Disparity is the connection laid by the Fire Tempest itself:

    "Primal pyromancy of Quelana of Izalith. Erect giant fire pillars in vicinity.
    The tempestuous raging flames resemble those summoned by the Daughters of Chaos when they challenged the ancient dragons and scorched the very earth."

    Since the art of the flame was once used by the Catalysts, such speculation has been asked as of what the Catalyst can be used for, other than the summoning of normal sorceries instead of Flame Sorceries. Whatever the case may be that whether or not these Catalyst hold such secrets is unknown, however the Catalysts are indeed viable sources of using normal sorceries, even if what they were intended for is now vanished from existence in the use of the undead.

    Now, as we know, the Witch of Izalith had seven daughters. Two are mysteriously none-existent, two are transformed into chaos centaurs, one is dead, and two exist as what they were, with one guarding of Bed of Chaos as a normal human being, seemingly unaffected by the transformation. However the witch of the swamp states that she was the only one that escaped from the chaos flame... their is one that still may very well have escaped form the transformations as well. A being in which many skip over in their travels, and do not pay attention to at times: The Son of Chaos. The only known son to have been born from the Witch of Izalith. Of course, the difference between him and his sisters can be said by the ring he was given, the Orange Charred Ring:

    "An orange ring enchanted by a witch. Reduces lava damage. Since his sores were
    inflamed by lava from birth, his witch sisters gave him this special ring. But fool that
    he is, he readily dropped it, and from that spot, a terrible centipede demon was born."

    Interesting. Now from this description, some would say that it would fit the Ceaseless Discharge, as it seemingly has 'wounds' in which lava seeps from. Of course, that is not the case. For one, the creature is made of lava rock, lava, and the bones and such in which the demon had before. Curious enough, such bones, the arms in which it uses to attack invaders, is of similar quality as that of the Demon Great Axes in terms of texture, which seems to show evidence that Ceaseless was a Taurus Demon. As stated before in the last post, it is speculated that Ceaseless was a demon, which was transformed from the very essence of the Chaos Flame, in which case is the Chaos Ember that later Chosen Undead can obtain once removed. Even so, the rings state that the sores were inflamed by lava, not lava itself. With this, it can be said that the sores were their before he was caught of fire by lava, so it can be said that the seeping wounds of lava is just a misinformed conflict of Ceaseless itself towards the ring, and nothing more. However, such sores seems interesting to speculate over, as to why he would have sores.

    But what are the witches? Such confirmations as such state that the Witches are not 'Human', in the sense that both FROM has stated, as well as my confirmations (although I saw them as 'human', I saw them of a similar basis of another sort of human-like creatures more so that what the undead are... stated soon). The witches of chaos are, in a sense, warriors of the flame. They use the art of the Flame of Disparity in order to defeat their enemies, and these witches are armed with such a flame. Their is also another creature who has such qualities. Even more so, all of them are female, similar to another creature as well. This creature I talk about are the Firekeepers themselves. The Firekeepers are not human, as the Firekeeper Souls define them as their only human quality being their skin:

    "Soul of the Darkmoon Knightess, Fire Keeper of Anor Londo.
    A Fire Keeper's soul is a draw for humanity, and held within their bosoms, below just a thin layer of skin, are swarms of humanity that writhe and squirm. Her brass armor serves to disguise this ghastly form."

    They both derive the flame, they both are users of the flame, and both are female. In both, i mean the Chaos Witches and the Firekeepers. The only difference is that the Firekeepers act as maidens and incubators of the select Bonfires, giving them more strength and power, while the Chaos Witches use the Flame as a weapon of sorts. Now what defines the Witches to not being human is unknown, although such similarities can say that the Chaos Witches might have such a define quality of the flame being an essence of their internal as well, as Humanity is within a Firekeeper. The only exception to these rules are the Son of Chaos, and Gwyn.

    Now Gwyn is another matter entirely. Instead of him being an essence in which holds Humanity, he distributes the Humanity to his warped warriors, the Black Knights, to face the Minions of Chaos. Of course, his enhollowment might have caused Gwyn to be unable to lead such Knights in battle now, as he is defined as 'human' (even if he is a God, his ascension to becoming a God is debatable as such). As he lost his God status, it can be said that he became human, or in better terms undead. More so, Gwyn acts as more so a Protector of the Flame than a Keeper, only doing a fracture of the Job.

    Now the Son of Chaos can follow such a fault as well. Due to the son being that of male instead of female, the Son of Chaos is unable to hold and use the power in which his sisters have mastered and used from the flame. However, with the fact that the son is male instead of female, such a being would have had a disconnection from such a Flame. With this, the Son of Chaos would have been vulnerable to the fires in which the lava showed, in which case scarred his sores that he had. Even so, such a creature as he would have been given a flame ring to have a better grasp over the plains of Izalith. However, the Firesage Demon, which is a he before his transformation to becoming a Demon, was also a male as well. Some might say that the Firesage could be the Son of Chaos before, however such a demon shows no sores that are different than the sores of the other tree demons, which have none. Even more so, such qualities of the sores engulfed by the flame is removed by the fact by such arts of the Firesage being covered by the flames of lava is less than the fact of the power of the flame itself. Take Flash Sweat and Iron flash for example. Such arts of the flame could have wrapped his body in fire, in which the Firesage obtained as a somewhat mastery from the Flame of Disparity. Such arts would single out the similarity towards the ring, in which states that the sores were lit by lava, and not that the sores ever continuously burned forever more, as the similar mistake given to the connection of the Son of Chaos and Ceaseless. So who is the Son of Chaos?

    I have stated this before, and I have stated this once more for clarification of the subject. This hypothesis has been claimed since the old forums, and seems to still hold strong today. In this, the Son of Chaos is speculated to be Kirk, the Knight of Thorns. Let me explain.

    Kirk is a Darkwraith defined by others for his Armour. As he wore it before joining the Chaos Covenant, it can be said that Kirk had it when he was still with Kaathe as a warrior of the dark. However, the knight's thorns are the art of the Chaos World itself. Such thorns were used by the usage of the Machetes, in which the Capra Demons use as their primary weapons, and the Exiled King also is armed with a Notched Whip, and is/was part of the Chaos Covenant as well. With this, it can be said that the Thorn qualities are the arts of which the people of Izalith, and later Lost Izalith, used as their primary physical weapons. The only other source of weaponry comes from the Arch trees and the Dead Demons across the world, as shown by the Bull and Tree demons. With this, Kirk was once in Izalith before it was consumed by the Chaos Flame.

    The second is the quality of the armour, as well as the texture of it. Such colours of the armour show it to be that of a burned quality, similar to that of the black knights. It can be said that such an armour was forged in Izalith at a time, during which it used the flames of Izalith for such an art. Even more so, the armour is that of a feminine quality, in which its form is that of a round and a... perfect form, for a lack of a term. Such qualities would be said for a feminine being, but Kirk is a male. Such as he was raised and born is a mostly female family, such qualities of Kirk would be similar as such. Although, due to the fact that the witches are more so defined as 'thorny' than rosy, as the witch of the swamp shows as such rudeness before a somewhat connection is made, Kirk would not have such feminine qualities such as Dusk or Rhea, but more so a dangerous one.

    The last is what he does for the Chaos Servants. As a Darkwraith is defined for taking humanity to prove as the Undead Warrior to be the new Dark Lord... it seems odd that he would join the Chaos Covenant, of all places. Even more so, as the Large Flame Ember, an ember that was once stored in New Londo (as hinted by the skeletal blacksmith, Vamos), and is now found in the Demon Ruins... the only being in which came from New Londo to Lost Izalith was the Darkwraith himself, Kirk. Even more so, it seems that he knows his way across the world, as it would take the knight some time to go across the plain (Solaire either walks with you from the long route, or goes threw the way of the shortcut too... the Onion Knight will be talked about in a later time). As Kirk might have used the shortcut, or took a different route all together, he seems to know the way across the plains. As he hunts for humanity, he might be obtaining humanity in order to serve the White Lady, in order to save her. His helmet and armour covers him entirely, which does not show the sores. However such sores could have been created from the thorns that he has now, or perhaps other means of being born male.

    As such, the evidence defines that Kirk is the Son of Chaos. Such speculation seems to put the reason and logic to him, while the other demons do not so, although the two, both the Firesage and the Ceaseless Discharge, gives hints of similarity. However it seems that such demons do not define it as such. Kirk has done too much to have just been a Chaos Servant, as those who join are usually bound to it from infestation (the exiled king has an egg for a head, covered by silk). Other than the flooding of New Londo, he could have left their before hand, as he could have left Izalith before it was engulfed by the Chaos, before the Witch of the Swamp left. It could explain why Kirk had readily left the ring, as he was either escaping the world with what he already knew, or he wanted to leave the world due to some... complications, with what the world of Izalith followed. He might have departed when the age of darkness first began, as might be the reason why he joined the Darkwraiths later on, to bring back the Age of Darkness once more. Of course, he might have come to some resolutions and revelations later on in his life.

    As for the rest of it all.... in the centre of Izalith, their is an Arch tree that goes right towards it. As well, the Alter towards the Flame of Disparity also has qualities of branches from an Arch tree, as well as the architecture from Izalith. With this, it can be said that the witch and the Firekeeper has a connection of sorts... but what?

    Well, that will be explained in the next post silly . I know, you may speculate over it, but I will say that you will be wrong. It is obvious, but I will say this: It is not the Witch of Izalith. The next will be posted soon for that.

    As for the philosophies of the witches, they seem to be in favour of the art of the flame. As they absorbed the power of the flame to use as their source of power, they invoked everything towards such an art. When the flame was removed, they lost all forms of power, in which the Witch of Izalith, unlike the other two lords, fell from power. In this, the witch tried to keep that power, in order to stay as such. In this, she created the Chaos Flame, which engulfed all that was around her in the world of Chaos. Although she did create the pyromancy flame, which allows the Flame to possibly live even when Darkness comes to the world... the Chaos Flame was one of the primary causes of the issues across the world.

    The relationship between the Witch and the Firekeeper, unlike the other Flame Lords, is unknown and spectacle. However those will be explained soon. Uncovering it would ruin the surprise. So i shall see you all soon. The third post of this topic will include the Firekeeper of the Flame of Disparity, as well as the rest that are tied to her. I now know who she might be, and the connections are accurate and straight. You shall see soon.
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    Post by User Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:54 pm

    Alright. This is the third piece of the posts in which to come, in which connects the Firekeeper of the First Flame, her thesis, and later on, either in this post or such, the conclusion of the Witch of Izalith will also be added, in order to sum up most of those factors. So, by the name of this post, it fits well to where it stands in my research. Enjoy!

    27. Third of a Quarter, yet Third of a Half.

    Alright, this is it. This will conclude a good factor of my research, and I intend on it staying that way. I have searched wide and far, and I have rechecked and fixed mistakes and such before. Now, even though I despise such a conclusion... the Firekeeper of the First Flame, and possibly the Pygmy (whether the Pygmy is the God of War or the Firekeeper is STILL being determined). So... who is the Pygmy?

    Well, let us get back to some things that have been stated before. Seath, the scaleless, is a master of sorcery. In this, he possibly became a dragon threw these degrees of magic, which explains why he is do different than other dragons (due to the lack of fire, as it were). Seath has some interesting ties towards... certain characters. As you know, Seath has a daughter, the Crossbreed. have dragon, half 'human'; she is the antimatter of life all together, and she drains and takes life from others, as it were. However... her mother is yet to be found. The daughter does have the qualities of her father, in which she has the same sort of magical breath, as well as the tail (which is similar to his, only smaller), and is very animal like in a way, with her fur acting as a sort of cloak. However... their was speculation that she was given such power of draining life from the Dark Ember, as it is inside the Painted World with her. Although, that may not be the case...

    Artorias, as speculated to be the Four Kings, betrayed Gwyn's charge of herding the humans, and became a twisted form of matter, created from the dark arts that Kaathe taught him. Kaathe, a Dark Beast, says that he wants the Age of Darkness to exist, as the descendant before the chosen undead has allowed. Now whether he means the God of War or the Firekeeper or not was undetermined. However, in front of the Fog Gate to the abyss, lays two special statues that are in front of the Fog Gate.

    Do you not know yet? Let us keep trying. When you leave the asylum at the very beginning of the game, you leave from the flight of a giant crow, who lifts the player up to Lordran. When the player gets back, from the sell the undead was resting in, their is also a key that is left for a specific world, in which their are also other crows that reside their.

    Do you see a trend? Do you see why it is so obvious? I fell stupid as well when I found out, and I did not really want to believe it...

    In the world of the Gods, Anor Londo, it was a place were not only seath and his knights, but Gwyn resided in as well. Their was his three children that resided their as Sun Gods. One of them, the youngest of them all, idolized himself as being the 'Dark Sun'. Even though he was a being who praised the sun... he called himself the Dark Sun instead. I thought that perhaps it is due to his moon status... but it seems that is not the case. Seath left a clue for us their.

    Out of all the Gods that were of Anor Londo, one sticked up as a sore thumb in the entire game, yet many dismissed her. She is known to be a Witch God with Black Hair, in which the Dark Armor that the Darkwraiths wear has such hair. Even more so, her miracles were of the 'Old and New', and they were of the same content of magic as the Dark Hand, which the Dark hand uses the Art of Dark. So, for those who do not get it yet...

    The Firekeeper of the Flame of Disparity is Velka. The Goddess of Sin.

    Do you see why it is so obvious? Do you see why I was unsatisfied by it before? Although Velka has little information, that minuscule amount is the same as the Firstborn of Gwyn and the Firekeeper: The God of War.

    So, as it seems, you may either disagree or agree with such a claim. I do not like it, but it points out as the most obvious candidate. Why is such a Black Witch serving as a goddess of Anor Londo? Why does her world contain the Crossbreed? Why does the areas in which the two Boars of Seath's protects to his sanctum have a woman holding out a flame? Why does Gwyndolin have the Dark Sun as his imagery, instead of a normal sun like his father? Seath, Velka, and Kaathe... they seem to be the three main objectives in which reside in the Dark. So how did it came to be? well, let us speculate over the matter for a bit.

    Seath has a child, when which is a crossbreed between Dragon AND Human. As Velka is the supposed descendant as such, it can be clear that Velka had a daughter with Seath... even though she was married to Gwyn. As the painted world is a storage house of sorts, it can be said that she hid her second daughter away. As their is a Gwynevre statue in front of the Painted World, across the hall where the guardians are, it can be said that perhaps for a time the little girl was acting as her step sister at times, portraying her as such. In this, Velka declared an order of Guardians, who were of similar appearance of the Crossbreed, from others form entering the Painted World. But why would she be in love with a Dragon?

    Kaathe, a Dark Beast, rests within the World of New Londo as the corruption that took New Londo from the grip of the gods, turning it into a fest of dark. As their are two statues of Velka dn her daughter, which is also seen with the same statue in the Painted World (although green and of smaller scale), it can be said that Velka and Kaathe has a relation of sorts as well. Kaathe is also a Dragon, a Glutton Dragon, in which the glutton Dragons are a symbol of the Undead. Interesting, isn't it? It is also noted that their is only two beings that can go to the painted World, excluding the Abysswalker and the Dark Beasts: The Chosen Undead, when they obtain the Covenant of Artorias; Witch Beatrice, a Rogue witch that taught herself the way of sorcery. Although she is not Velka, as she has blond curly hair, and she also uses normal sorcery instead of Dark... the status of Witches being able to travel in the Abyss is a linkage of sorts. May I remind you that the Witch of Izalith and the Daughters are Witches as well? I will talk about her soon, don't worry.

    So what are these relationships with the Dragons and Witches? Well, all the Witches, both Velka, the Witch of Izalith, and Witch Beatrice, all seek power of sorts. The dragons, such as Seath, were speculated to be once human (as speculated before), also seek such power as well. It seems that such Witches and Dragons have a same Goal: To Obtain Power. of course, only one witch does obtain it, while her followers also obtain it as well as Herders and Warlords, by their own right. Now whether or not Kaathe, being a Dragon, was a human being or not, but it can be said that the Glutton Dragons came to exist by such rituals as such. Although how that may be is unknown. What we do know that the Dark has teamed up, excluding the great Gravelord himself. But why?

    That, my friends, is simple. Nito seeks the flame to stay lit, so that incarnation can forever exist, and his power as such can ever so prosper. Even if he was a spawn of Velka, he still declares her lesser than the new Flame Keeper (but not Firekeeper), Gwyn. The relationship between Gwyn and Velka is unknown... but it seems that Velka wanted to bring down her husband for more power. Corrupting Gwyndolin (by the hand of Seath), Causing the God of War to Exile, the people of Anor Londo to flee, and cheating on Gwyn with a bastard abomination... it can be said that their is a reason why Velka is known as the Goddess of Sin. The same reason why the Firstborn is known as the God of War. Not only because it is what they are affiliated with, but also for what they had done. As Seath is a Sorcerer, and Velka a Witch, such bondage of magic and power could have tied the two together at one point, in which Gwyn was removed form their sights of reason. Kaathe corrupted on of the Knights of Gwyn, Artorias, in which claimed the power of the Dark, and was known as the Four Kings. It seems that is the reason why Velka has pardoners to remove the sins of others, so that they may be hidden from the sight of the other Gods and watchers of Gwyn.

    The Dark is Winning. Their is no apparent complain about it. Their are many sides, but their are two main ones in the Lore that show what it is so: Gwyn and Nito, against the Dark and Seath. But what of the Flame Witch?

    She has no role any more as a Flame Lord. trapped in a Grub Body, the Chaos Flame runs all of the Chaos Demons across the world, and is the spawn in which all had transformed from. She has no objection, no fight towards anything. She is helpless. Although she and Velka are Witches, it can explain why the the Witch of Izalith was given such arts of flame, as well as a Soul of the Flame Lords. As she is a witch, it can be said that Velka had given such power to the witch as a somewhat allegiance of the two Witches to obtain power. However, as it seems that the Firekeeper or the God of War removed the Flame of Disparity to start the First age of dark, the Flame Witch panicked, and tried to recreate it for her power to still be shown. However, as she was a Witch of the Flame, and not a Witch of the Dark, it could be that the practises between the two went askew, and as such the Chaos Flame was born, instead of a second Flame of Disparity. In this, Gwyn took over as the Lord of Cinder, and led a war against the Chaos Flame... however, it seems that Velka and her companions had other plans, in which a new enemy shown up and removed order from the world, the order of the sun. Blackening out with Dark.

    It seems that the Chaos Flame is just a sub-factor of the Chaotic War. With the other sides being the ever losing Gwyn, the Dark beings of Velka and her followers... the only other factors in which stay are the Dragons that reside in Ash Lake, as well as the God of War. The God of War, however, is missing still. The Dragon of Ash Lake can not continue the art that was once used to create the everlasting dragons, as the undead are unable to live so long as to obtain it, as well as the possible sacrifice of scales to reach such a criteria of evolution would possibly take centuries, if not thousands of years. The Chaos Flame spreads terror across the land; The Dark corrupt and change the humans that exist into unlawful and killer creatures, in which seek only power for themselves. Nito being only a brief ally of Gwyn, as well as Lloyd as well as possibly Gwynevre.

    It is no wonder why Gwyn went hollow... it seems sad in a way, such a lord of law and order is being reduced by corruption and chaos. Velka points herself as being the former Firekeeper, it is by no doubt in that factor. But the God of War is still missing.

    Like I said, you may agree or disagree. Argue if you will with me, I will defend it if I must. But it is, truth be told yet again, obvious. I hate the word obvious as well as possibly you, but it is. Honesty is what I live with, I would never lie to you unless it was of an absolute cause...

    But what of Rhea? Wasn't she suppose to replace the Firekeeper of Disparity, Cook? Well, it is stated that she is of a Trueborn of sorts, in which can tie her to possibly being the same entity of the Witches as well. Now how it is that Velka came to be the Firekeeper is unknown to me still. Perhaps Velka was also a Maiden of Lloyd, in which later she transformed into... something else, after possible causes. We do not know what had happened between her and Gwyn, nor her son. However, she became a creature of the Dark somehow. Perhaps their is something to it that is yet to be discovered.

    Their is still more to be explained. The lore is not over. The lore continues on to being a mystery. But it can be said, as always, that we are heading towards the step to the end. It may take days, weeks, and possibly months... but it will come to be whole soon. I feel I am very close.

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    Post by DoughGuy Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:31 am

    Wow that was unexpected ... I have an idea but I'm struggling a bit to understand parts of what you wrote so forgive if I am wrong in what i say. Perhaps Velka's fall to darkness was caused by the exstinguishment of the first flame. Either when it was exstinguished she almost went hollow, realised her weakness being tied to the flame and attempted to divorce herself from the flame to survive or she exstinguished it herself to appease Seath or for some other reason. I'll try reading this again soon to see if I can grasp it better.
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    Post by User Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:34 am

    I am sorry. i know my description of her are not as explained... but I will answer your questions if you have any.

    My mind is just emotional from the finds right now. Although my logic and instinct still function fine, all of it is grasping onto Dark Souls as if it is part of life. I guess it is, in a way now. I feel pissed, and not much joy comes to me putting a good amount of description as before posts. But I will answer if needed... just ask.
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    Post by DoughGuy Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:37 am

    If Velka was the firekeeper and she gave the souls from the flame to Gwyn and the witch while creating Nito did she give the soul to the pygmy or did they find it themself?
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    Post by User Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:42 am

    Well, she would have given the Souls of the Flame Lords to the beings, it is clear. It is by no coincidence that the three stated before had obtained such a Flame Soul. The Pygmy...

    The Pygmy right now is either Velka, the Firekeeper, or the God of War. every time I try to clarify either or, it seems to draw to both of them. it is hard to say whether the God of War or the Goddess of Sin is the Pygmy... The God of War shows promise of it at times, however velka does as well. The rpoblem is that 'Pygmy' is never, ever used for anything in the game, other than the prologue. The only creature, Kaathe, speculates of an ancestor of sorts, and it seems to point to Velka as it seems. However, it is hard to say if he is pointing to her, or her son.

    Like I said, the search continues for the Pygmy. But by far it is either or, their is no question about it. Just don;t know if it is either or. It seems it would be the God of War, since the Firekeeper would have a Firekeeper Soul filled with humanity, but not a soul of the Flame Lords... ugh, speculation and search as such still continues in that front.
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    Post by DoughGuy Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:49 am

    Hmmm. You are right. However thikn about how warlike of a race humanity is. Ot makes sense for the God of War to be the ancestor of humanity. I suppose however, sin is also a trait you see much of in Dark Souls. It is an enigma. I think the wording of the prologue gives the final evidence. The pygmy is "so eaily forgotten". velka is not a forgotten figure in the dark souls world while the God of War is known to basically no-one. Virtually only the sunbros would know of him. In that I would think the god of war would be the pygmy.
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    Post by User Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:51 am

    Like I said, it is hard to say. Both show evidence as such... But which?
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    Post by Tolvo Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:53 am

    Alright, this time I'm going to guess. Because then we would have been on the same page about the fire keeper, because I have believed Velka was the original Fire Keeper and Gwyn's possible mate for some time. After going through New Londo a few times and the Painted World it just seemed to click with me, though I didn't really have anything to bring to the table like you did.

    Now I feel like I should guess who the god of war is and see if I'm right, given my track record.

    Alright I've got nothing other than Solaire, his Summon spot at Gwyn has perplexed me for some time.
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    Post by DoughGuy Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:57 am

    Surely if the God of War was Solaire his death would prevent you from levelling up in the sunbro's from then on. Something to do is to look at the statue at the sunlight altar. Use the binoculars and focus on the face. See if you can match it up to any other characters in the game. Also look at his equipment for clues. He reminds me of ornstein but thats not possible.

    Acidic what onformation do you have on Lloyd? Because he is one character I feel we do not have enough info on.
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    Post by Tolvo Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:00 am

    Actually that is a good point to bring up. If allfather Lloyd is the father in Law to Gwyn wouldn't that mean that Lloyd has some relations to the Witches of Izalith, Seath the Scaleless, and his clerics from Thorulund and Nito? Is it possible he actually has his hands so deep in Lordran indirectly in some matter? As well New Londo given Velka's possible connection with Kaathe and the Dark Wraiths.
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    Post by DoughGuy Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:05 am

    The first question that needs to be answered about him - Is he Gwyn or Velka's uncle? Does he ahte the undead because he supports Gwyn's age of fire or because he hates what his daughter Velka has become?

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