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    The "Alternative Weapon" Covenant - Proposals

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    Post by ChaosMoogle Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:05 pm

    Hi guys,

    So as a pre-cursor to setting up the first proper covenant thread, which will detail invasions and dueling mechanics, restrictions and lore etc etc, here I will outline all of the gear in the game that is allowed to be used, and ask for your input. If you feel strongly that any item on this list should not be here (or vice versa) please state your case for all of us to consider happy

    Please refer to this thread for a discussion about the motivation behind the Covenant in the meantime.

    Item's in italics are borderline, please give your opinion on these as well happy Items from PtDE and the DLC have spoiler warnings

    ----------
    Weapons
    ****NON ELEMENTAL WEAPONS ONLY****

    FIST
    -Caestus
    -Dragon Bone Fist

    DAGGERS
    -Ghost Blade
    -Priscilla's Dagger

    CURVED SWORDS
    -Jagged Ghost Blade
    -Scimitar

    KATANAS
    None

    STRAIGHT SWORDS
    -Crystal Straight Sword
    -Darksword
    -Broken Straight Sword
    -Straight Sword Hilt
    -Broadsword
    -Barbed Straight Sword

    GREATSWORDS
    None

    ULTRA GREATWORDS
    -Demon Great Machete
    -Dragon Greatsword
    -Greatsword
    -Black Knight Greatsword

    CURVED GREATSWORDS
    -Server
    -Gravelord Sword

    PIERCING SWORDS
    -Mail Breaker

    AXES
    -Battleaxe
    -Butcher's Knife
    -Gargoyle Tail Axe
    -Crescent Axe
    -Golem Axe

    GREATAXES
    -Demon's Greataxe
    -Dragon King Greataxe
    Spoiler:

    HAMMERS
    -Handaxe
    -Mace
    -Morning Star
    -Warpick
    -Pickaxe
    -Blacksmith's Hammer (Andre's only)

    GREAT HAMMERS
    -Great Club
    -Demon's Great Hammer
    -Smough's Hammer
    -Dragon Tooth
    -Large Club

    HALBERDS
    -Lucerne
    -titanite Catch Pole
    -Scythe

    Spears
    -Channellers Trident

    WHIPS
    -Whip
    -Notched Whip
    Spoiler:

    BOWS & CROSSBOWS
    -Darkmoon Bow
    -Dragonslayer Greatbow
    -Black Bow of Pharis
    -Sniper Crossbow
    Spoiler:

    SMALL SHIELDS
    -Warrior's Round Shield
    -Red and White Round Shield
    -Cracked Round Shield
    -Plank Shield
    -Effigy Shield
    -Crystal Ring Shield

    MEDIUM SHIELDS
    -Pierce Shield
    -Spiked Shield
    -East West Shield
    -Sanctus
    -Large Leather Shield
    -Tower Kite Shield
    -Caduceus Kite Shield
    -Knight Shield
    -Spider Shield
    -Crystal Shield
    -Gargoyle Shield
    -Balder Shield
    -Iron Round Shield

    GREAT SHIELDS
    -Black Iron Greatshield
    -Tower Shield
    -Giant's Shield
    -Stone Greatshield
    -Bonewheel Shield

    Any Talisman, Catalyst or Pyromancy Flame

    ----------
    These Weapons may be used in any combination, from Dual-Wielding, to main-handing a shield and offhanding an Ultra Greatsword. The aim here is to be creative. A reverse-restrictive order will be in place, whereby Lower Rank covenant members may used a wider selection of weapons, however upon ranking up (if you choose to do so), restrictions about weapons and combinations of weapons will be put into place to make things more interesting. This will all be detailed in the upcoming Covenant Thread
    ----------
    Spells

    SORCERY
    -Hidden Body
    -Hidden Weapon
    -Chameleon
    -Hush
    -Cast Light
    -Fall Control
    -Resist Curse
    -Remedy
    -Aural Decoy
    -Great Soul Arrow
    -White Dragon Breath

    PYROMANCY
    -Undead Rapport
    -Acid Surge
    -Poison Mist
    -Toxic Mist
    -Iron Flesh
    -Power Within
    -Fire Whip
    -Chaos Fire Whip

    MIRACLES
    -Karmic Justice
    -Gravelord Sword Dance
    -Gravelord Greatsword Dance
    -Emit Force
    -Sunlight Spear
    -Vow of Silence (Removed for now)
    -Soothing Sunlight
    -Bountiful Sunlight
    -Replenishment

    ----------

    Concerning PtDE and the DLC

    Spoiler:

    Some Questions

    What are peoples opinions on offhanding Greatswords and Daggers? I would like to avoid offhand Spears/Katanas/Curved Swords/Rapiers

    Elemental Damage on Shields, Yay or Nay?

    Rynn - having just read your post about Axes etc, what is your opinion on the inclusion of these. Yay or Nay?












    Last edited by ChaosMoogle on Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:28 pm; edited 22 times in total
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    Post by ChaosMoogle Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:05 pm

    BANNED RINGS
    -Dark Wood Grain Ring
    -Leo Ring
    -Bellowing Dragoncrest Ring
    -Hornet Ring
    -Ring of the Sun's First Born



    You may wear EITHER The Wolf Ring OR The Ring of Favour and Protection OR Havel's Ring, but not any two together. My idea for doing this, and excluding certain rings is that it will allow you to be more creative with your Ring choices and switch them around more than you usually would in order to suit, and enhance, your particular playstyle.


    Last edited by ChaosMoogle on Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post by ChaosMoogle Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:05 pm

    BANNED ARMOUR
    Pinwheel Masks
    Giant's Armour Set
    Havel's Armour Set
    Wanderer Set
    Hollow Soldier Waistcloth
    Big Hat
    Witch Cloak
    Crown of Dusk

    (To be Updated)


    Last edited by ChaosMoogle on Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:34 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Post by ChaosMoogle Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:37 pm

    I was tempted to add the Wolf Ring to the banned list, as this will essentially replace the DWGR once the DLC arrives, but I think that might be a step too far for some people silly
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    Post by Rynn Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:44 pm

    Axes are fine.
    Why is the greatsword (it's an UGS) banned? I never see it. Ever. It's always the Zwei.
    Why is the Leo Ring banned if all the weapons it's normally used with banned? I'd love to play a Barbed Straight Sword build, but without the Leo Ring, the weapon is unusable, as it only reaches 370 AR, has horrible range, and is easily parriable. This also removes the usage of many hammers. I feel that banning the weapons that tend to use the leo ring was far enough, personally.

    Will the DWGR be permitted once the DLC hits? As when the DLC hits, it will only work at 25% weight limit, i feel the ring will be far less common at that point.
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    Post by WyrmHero Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:59 pm

    Armor is easy. No masks/Giant set/Havel's set/Dusk Crown.
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    Post by ChaosMoogle Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:05 pm

    I would add the Greatsword if more people wanted me to. I just didn't add it because along with the Zwei it's among the more common UGS'.

    The reason I disallowed the Leo Ring is because the rolls attacks of the some UGS weapons benefit from it, and I feel that encourages a repetitive style of of gameplay. The Halberd (specifically the Lucerne) would also be at an advantage with the Leo Ring and I don't want to bias people towards certain weapons. The Leo is also used extensively. All that said, I could add it in if people like happy

    I would not like to allow the DWGR, even after the nerf. The reason for this is that the invincibility frames are still the same, and this is the main reason I'm not allowing it in the first place silly That, and c'mon...it wouldn't be an 'Alternative' build covenant with the DWGR now, would it? silly
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    Post by WyrmHero Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:45 pm

    I agree with rynn the DWGR will be very underrated with the new patch, especially for low SL builds.


    Last edited by WyrmHero on Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by ViralEnsign_ Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:46 pm

    Why remove the Leo ring?
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    Post by ChaosMoogle Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:03 pm

    ViralEnsign_ wrote:Why remove the Leo ring?

    ChaosMoogle wrote:
    The reason I disallowed the Leo Ring is because the rolls attacks of the some UGS weapons benefit from it, and I feel that encourages a repetitive style of of gameplay. The Halberd (specifically the Lucerne) would also be at an advantage with the Leo Ring and I don't want to bias people towards certain weapons. The Leo is also used extensively. All that said, I could add it in if people like happy

    This, and I think that for the purposes of this covenant, a Barbed Str. Sword for example would hold it's own against say a Greataxe because of it's speed and weight.

    I don't know guys, I'm still not sold on the DWGR. Perhaps for invasions, but at sl99 and 120 duels I just don't think it's very in the spirit of the covenant. An example - You're up against someone with Great Hammer/Axe, you invinci-flip through an attack and BS with your weapon. I don't see how that's different from any other PvP fight.
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    Post by Mr. Tart Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:09 pm

    How about the first thing you do is host an event once this covenant gets going(unless the DLC has already been released by then) where anyone using the DWGR would have to play a build as if the DLC had already been released? That way you could see how it works and see if it could possibly change your mind, or if of course it would strengthen your point.
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    Post by Mr_Bungle50221 Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:12 pm

    I think its good to leave that DWGR out, its overused, OP to hell and is mostly in the hands of the cookie cutter idiots you seem to be wanting to keep out of here silly
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    Post by XachAttack Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:55 am

    May I hear your reasoning behind, 'banning' let's call it, the Longsword, Broadsword and nearly all Curved Swords? Except the Falchion because I'm aware of what Darkmooners do with it.

    I wasn't aware that Straight Swords were used by anyone but myself, so I'm rather confused why you removed any of them in the first place.
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    Post by WyrmHero Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:59 pm

    Broadsword is fine, however, Longsword and SSS thrusting R2 is as OP as BSS's.
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    Post by WyrmHero Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:03 pm

    The Large Club and Great Club should be removed from that list. Higher AR than Demon's Great Hammer and only 10 weight? OP
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    Post by XachAttack Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:05 pm

    If I'm correct in assuming SSS means SIlver Straight Sword then that doesn't have a thrusting r2, it's a regular attack type combo.

    But I see, I never knew the Longsword's r2 did that as well.
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    Post by FinPeku Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:06 pm

    No love for claws? sad
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    Post by WyrmHero Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:21 pm

    XachAttack wrote:If I'm correct in assuming SSS means SIlver Straight Sword then that doesn't have a thrusting r2, it's a regular attack type combo.

    But I see, I never knew the Longsword's r2 did that as well.

    Sunlight Straight Sword, the best "non BSS" straight sword lol.
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    Post by WyrmHero Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:24 pm

    FinPeku wrote:No love for claws? sad

    I think Claws, Dragon Claws and DBF are the best fist weapons.
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    Post by XachAttack Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:39 pm

    WyrmHero: Sunlight Straight Sword, the best "non BSS" straight sword lol.

    Oh, of course lol my bad. Totally forgot about that one.

    As for Armor, Moogle. Like someone else said, none of those full havel/giant setups, but maybe a limit of at least 1 piece of either to someone's armor setup but not 1 piece of one and 1 piece of another.

    The Pinwheel masks too, I think most everyone would agree if those were applied to the 'banned' section.

    Every other armor setups, in my opinion, are fair game.
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    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:43 pm

    the dbf is so... silly lol, best bet on a dragon toon would be to offhand it for the quick jab and defense bonus it gives... then use a big weapon in the other...

    http://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=2822112762766762

    like this would be good, maybe switrch in a large club instead...
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    Post by WyrmHero Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:09 pm

    I think you should include the little spears on the list moogle. Almost no one uses them and they aren't as annoying and OP as the long spears.

    -Spear
    -Winged Spear
    -Partizan
    -Pike?
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    Post by WyrmHero Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:10 pm

    And Fire should be the only elemental upgrade lol so useless.
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    Post by ChaosMoogle Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:16 pm

    WyrmHero wrote:The Large Club and Great Club should be removed from that list. Higher AR than Demon's Great Hammer and only 10 weight? OP

    Yeah, I thought about omitting the Large Club which is why it's in italics, the Great Club however has slightly higher requirements, and 12 weight along with a more impractical moveset which is why I left it in. This is why I wanted everyone's opinions though, as I want to arrive at a list of gear that everyone (or at least the large majority) agrees with happy I'll put Great Club in italics.

    XachAttack - the reason I left a lot of straight swords out of the list is because 1) mainly what Wyrm Said, 2) the majority of Straight Swords basically all have the same moveset so I don't really see the point in including all of them so instead I added the more unusual ones. As you'll see in the other weapon classes I've tried to avoid adding weapons which are basically copies of others and include those that have unique moves. Which straight swords would you like to see added?


    The other Curved Swords omitted are the Shotel and Quelaags Furysword which are very popular, the Painting Guardian Sword which is rapidly becoming popular because of its moveset/weight/dps potential, and the Scimitar which is basically the crap version of the Falchion. I did actually consider putting the Scimitar on the list though, what do others think?

    Still looking for more opinions on the DWGR guys happy Mr. Tart - I think this is a very reasonable idea, but I would be tempted to impose other restrictions such as 0 poise for it's trial period silly

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    Post by ChaosMoogle Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:29 pm

    Regarding Spells

    -Are people generally happy with these? I though about adding a more offensive pyro but then decided not to, as with Sorcery and Miracles I've only included the more offensive spells that have high requirements, so you don't get something for nothing. Is this fair?

    Armour

    -Masks, Havel's and Giant's are a given, but I also though about omitting the Black Iron, Wanderer and Logan's sets as these are fairly popular, and I don't want to seem unfair by just saying 'don't use the high poise armours'. Thoughts?


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