"Advanced" tier weapons.

When some people encounter a katana or curved sword user, they usually complain about the person being a "scrub" or a "noob". This person could be highly proficient at the game, with a full understanding of the mechanics, but because of their weapon, they're automatically disregarded as some sort "casul tryhard" if that even makes sense.

Katanas, and curved swords are weapons that are widely used because of their extremely shallow learning curve; they're weapons that require not much in the way of investment (time and stats) to use with a certain degree of efficiency.

There are plenty of weapons that share this trait. Weapons such as the MSGS, zweihander or blacksmith hammer, (none of which regarded with the same animosity as katanas) are all weapons that require little invested time and stats to use well enough to reach standard skill* with.

*Standard skill is how I refer to one's ability to surpass the minimum of a 50/50 win loss ratio, while utilizing the entirety of their weapon's move set.

Some weapons, however, require some dedication to reach standard skill with. Weapons such as the murakumo, flamberge or lucerne. All weapons are very viable, but can be disregarded due to reasons such as awkward timings, or unforgiving stat requirements. People who use these "Advanced" weapons at standard skill level are *usually* regarded as pros, or good players.

The weapons mentioned are entirely my opinion of course. Which weapons do all of you deem "Advanced" weapons, and why?

Straight Sword Hilt.
Advanced weapons are those weapons that no one uses because they are inferior. A moveset is either practical or it isn't. Personal skill is what matters most.

what? the zwei is hated by everyone, the msgs is not used nearly as much as the clay and the flamberge is pretty much the same as the msgs except for the r2s. the hammers are actually hard to use since if you miss you're probably gonna get bs'ed and they're so easy to parry. I don't think there's any weapons that are better than other but there are weapons that are definitely much easier to use than other like spears.

Seignar wrote:Straight Sword Hilt.
Advanced weapons are those weapons that no one uses because they are inferior. A moveset is either practical or it isn't. Personal skill is what matters most.

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. I'm referring to a person's skill with a weapon. The greatsword, for example, is often overshadowed by the zwei because it's both heavier, and requires more in the way of stats. Those factors aside, the greatsword's R2 is a forward thrusting swing that can be bolstered by the leo ring for incredible amounts of damage. This makes the greatsword potentially better than the zwei, but at the same time, worse. The payout is in moveset utility.

RantFromRant wrote:what? the zwei is hated by everyone, the msgs is not used nearly as much as the clay and the flamberge is pretty much the same as the msgs except for the r2s. the hammers are actually hard to use since if you miss you're probably gonna get bs'ed and they're so easy to parry. I don't think there's any weapons that are better than other but there are weapons that are definitely much easier to use than other like spears.

I'd have to disagree with you on the zwei thing, but that's just from personal experience. The msgs is on the list because at +15, it takes a minimum of 27 strength to use, where as the claymore takes 27/40. I'm not referring to how popular a weapon is, but how accessible it is to the discerning player. Flamberge has the lowest damage output of the three, but it's R2s are what make it special, and allow it to be potentially better *if you use the entirety of its moveset*. Hammers are the same thing as the Zwei, but I agree with you on the topic of spears.

well that doesn't change the fact the the clay is still used more than the msgs and that a lot of people go with the clay because its lighter and has an arguably better moveset. the zwei is used a lot mainly because of its stunlocking capabilities and its actually really easy to use and EVERYONE I see uses them makes it lighting or chaos, I rarely see a quality build using it, maybe we're playing different games lol.

RantFromRant wrote:its actually really easy to use

Probably playing different games.

Edit* I'm not trying to say the Zwei is hard to use, but I was agreeing with your ending statement.

damn I forgot to list my 'advanced; weapons, here it goes.
-fist weapons
-DGM
-reg/great axes
-little hammer
-lucerne

RenegadeCop wrote:Broken Straight Sword.
Because goddamn, you would need a ton of skill to win with that.

Katanas are one of the most impressive weapons to watch a good player use. They don't have dumb gimmicks, they lose trades with almost every other weapon in the game, their damage output is on the low end, etc. They overcome this by being very flexible and making excellent use of a players' understanding of fundamentals and mental presence.

I think they don't get much respect because buffed katanas are really strong, easy to use, and most people are too dumb to kite buffs. And because katanas don't have a bunch fancy gimmicks that people can point to and say, "look that's cool!" IMO fundamental and intelligent play is undervalued among DkS PvP'ers, and the wide-spread hate of katanas reflects this.

Also katanas are difficult to punish which makes it easy for dumb players to get away with dumb things, but only against opponents below a certain skill level. Eventually if you keep just walking up and starting your R1 mash you're going to run into players smart enough to poise parry you, or just R1 back with a stronger weapon or whatever.

Also I don't think much of curved swords, but I feel for people who play them. I imagine their average evening in the Burg must feel a little like this.

Oh also I guess I'll throw Greatbows out there as advanced weapon. Because I like them and you almost never see them. IMO they are actually extremely easy to use, but that might just be because few players know how to play against them.

Poison throwing knives. Obvious reasons......

Re: Zweihander discussion. If somebody is playing aggressively against you and is trying to punish your moves by predicting them, or if they're trying to BS fish against you, then Zweihander is like S++ tier, best weapon in the game, wins every time. Zweihander's problem (and the problem with all ultra weapons) is that if your opponent can play defensively, position himself well, keep a level head (can be hard to do because Zweihander has this looming threat of "one hit leads to mix-ups that lead to death") and punish everything you do on reaction with a rollstab, you don't have a lot of ways to deal with that, and you're going to lose a lot. And suddenly Zweihander is like the hardest weapon in the world to use.

So basically Zweihander is only easy to use if you're fighting against people who aren't smart enough to take advantage of its weaknesses. So Zweihander is usually really easy to use.

Saturday-Saint wrote:Re: Zweihander discussion. If somebody is playing aggressively against you and is trying to punish your moves by predicting them, or if they're trying to BS fish against you, then Zweihander is like S++ tier, best weapon in the game, wins every time. Zweihander's problem (and the problem with all ultra weapons) is that if your opponent can play defensively, position himself well, keep a level head (can be hard to do because Zweihander has this looming threat of "one hit leads to mix-ups that lead to death") and punish everything you do on reaction with a rollstab, you don't have a lot of ways to deal with that, and you're going to lose a lot. And suddenly Zweihander is like the hardest weapon in the world to use.

So basically Zweihander is only easy to use if you're fighting against people who aren't smart enough to take advantage of its weaknesses. So Zweihander is usually really easy to use.

I've used a Zwei in PvP a lot, and indeed rollstabs were my worst enemy. Others were people with really fast weapons who'd dodge and attack in between my attacks, and the longer spears (like Demon's Spear).

Your last sentence made me laugh, because it's true. Most people either try trading hits (probably worst idea) or parrying (which just gets them dead-angled).

Yeah... Zweihander IMO is kind of a boring weapon to play with when good players are involved because a good Zwei player will take anything you give them and turn your healthbar to ash. So you have to play a really low-risk game. Like you said about parries. Yeah Zwei is easy to parry, yeah it leads to good damage, but parrying is risky because you can BS it or dead angle it. And giving a Zwei player ANYTHING like that and it's just dead angle, staggerstab, wake-up mix-up, you're dead.

I guess what bums me out about Ultra weapons to me is that they aren't just low-tier weapons, it's that they're low-tier weapons ONLY if you play extremely lame vs. them. If you don't, they're super good. So you're forced to turtle, rollstab, and occasionally throw out a really safe poke. Otherwise you're handing the Ultra user the win.

Greataxe in Demon's Souls IMO was a lower-mid-tier weapon, and it played very similarly to Ultra weapons in Dark Souls, but you didn't beat it by playing a really defensive reaction-based game, and playing more aggressively vs. GAxe didn't screw you over.

On the topic of Katanas and Zweihanders, I've been using this build for the past 3 days, and I'm loving it to death

Dibsville wrote:On the topic of Katanas and Zweihanders, I've been using this build for the past 3 days, and I'm loving it to death

Fitting build is fitting.

Saturday-Saint wrote:...Katanas are one of the most impressive weapons to watch a good player use. They don't have dumb gimmicks, they lose trades with almost every other weapon in the game, their damage output is on the low end, etc. They overcome this by being very flexible and making excellent use of a players' understanding of fundamentals and mental presence...

....oh God, I almost fell outta my chair.

Weapons that demonstrate skill?

-Head shots from bows in pvp. If you can semi-effectively quick-scope…you’re pro.

-Getting bled out by Pricilla’s Dagger without a kat or GT.

-When someone makes me feel like their Long Sword is a Balder Side Sword.

-When someone lands that BKGS 2handed R2 on me I think, “Well good for them. Thay deserved it! ”

-A good scimitar user, or a good PGS user.

-I also like it when someone commits to the catch pole.

I've bled people with only the P.Dagger. Skarekrow....do.....good?

Dibsville wrote:...Honestly, you can not simply use a Curved Sword without getting hate...

I'd agree with that and say idk to the rest.

I just know katanas and curved swords and hell, the BSS are all dex (the dominate build) and have GREAT movesets and dps.

I say yes they take less skill to use in general. I prefered the Falchion. I didn't think I needed the bleed outs, and was happy just spamming 2H R1s. I used the Iaito too, but not hitting the R2s made it feel just like a Falchion.

Some of ease of using a lot of weapns is what turned me on to advanced spell combos and set ups.

I know you can play the katanas and curved swords beautifully, but with dex and vit being such popular builds they might get more hate from popularity imo.

Takes a little more skill than using spears I guess.

@Dibs and Skare

yes 8) ...so yes. This dude that headshot me twice though...he was

Dibsville wrote:Honestly, you can not simply use a Curved Sword without getting hate. If you fought someone using a Curved Sword, how would you want them to fight?

Roll around?
Well, that's pretty much kiting, that's cheap.

Use the R2?
Well, the R2 is pretty strong and hard to parry, so I don't want you to use it.

Use the R1?
So bad that you have to R1 mash.

Use the 1-handed R1?
That has better DPS than the R2 due to lower stamina consumption allowing more hits.

People complain about every weapon, saying it's too strong or too fast, saying that you should use a different weapon. Then ten minutes later, they are using the same weapon and calling you a noob because you lost. I was using my Gravelord Servant build and won against somebody who randomly invaded me. He yelled at me for attacking him while he was using moss because of toxin, but I told him that he shouldn't use humanity three times while enemies make small roadblocks.

I ended up rematching him with my Onion Greatsword build and beat him again. The reason; he tried to use his Estus Flask. He complained that the Greatsword was an overpowered weapon because it had 'too much damage.' The next time I fought him, he was hacking for infinite stamina, health, and ninja flip in full Havel's. He easily killed me with a 5,000 damage punch. He kept sending me hatemail about how I sucked.

Honestly, I believe every weapon is okay, as long as you don't rub it in someone's face that you beat them.

axes, their move set is limited, but their fast and deal good poise damage, plus some like the butchers knife have very unique and useful moves on their r2's, simple but requires a lot of skill to win with.
second is whip because no criticals and a slightly too slow attack speed for damage level, but they have few defensive counters being unparryable.
third advance tier weapon would be.... fist weapons...