by Phoenix Rising Sat May 11, 2013 3:25 pmDibs OP...needs nerf...
+20
Shakie666
DemonRider909
Saturday-Saint
Rynn
billy_bayonet
Glutebrah
lordgodofhell
Phoenix Rising
ResIsBestStat
Tolvo
Animaaal
Latitoast
RANT
SirArchmage
Brigade
Seignar
TehInfamousAmos
User1
divinebeanpole
Dibsville
24 posters
The Almighty Dagger
Phoenix Rising- Caffeinated
- Posts : 892
Reputation : 29
Join date : 2012-05-04
Age : 46
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9377
Reputation : 134
Join date : 2013-03-09
Age : 26
Location : Gensōkyō
The winner of that fight would be determined by how the fight would actually happen.
If for example, both people just had to bash on eachother with infinite Endurance and infinite poise, the Falchion would win, but with any buff under the same rules the Dagger would win.
In a fight of attrition, the Dagger would win because its faster speed would allow a hit and run more easily than the Falchion would.
If it was an R2 match, it would depend on whether you're one-handing or two handing.
If for example, both people just had to bash on eachother with infinite Endurance and infinite poise, the Falchion would win, but with any buff under the same rules the Dagger would win.
In a fight of attrition, the Dagger would win because its faster speed would allow a hit and run more easily than the Falchion would.
If it was an R2 match, it would depend on whether you're one-handing or two handing.
lordgodofhell- Obsessed
- Posts : 533
Reputation : 29
Join date : 2012-03-17
Location : United States of Daku Souru
Can't believe I just read 4 full pages of dagger and falchion talk. *Shudders.
*Goes back to his manly man weapons swinging like a man.
*Goes back to his manly man weapons swinging like a man.
Animaaal- Compulsory Poster
- Posts : 3419
Reputation : 175
Join date : 2013-01-17
lordgodofhell wrote:Can't believe I just read 4 full pages of dagger and falchion talk. *Shudders.
*Goes back to his manly man weapons swinging like a man.
Interesting....
What if...you wear the elf ears, a skirt, and "wield a big stick" or better yet the MLBH....NO WAIT!.....nvm I got nothin....
B.O.T.-Do daggers have the hightest lb/damage ratio (outside of casting tools?)
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9377
Reputation : 134
Join date : 2013-03-09
Age : 26
Location : Gensōkyō
After using it in the Forest for awhile, I can honestly say this might be my new favourite weapon.
Guess the Halberd's glory days are over.
Guess the Halberd's glory days are over.
User1- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9912
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2012-12-18
Dual-wield them both!
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9377
Reputation : 134
Join date : 2013-03-09
Age : 26
Location : Gensōkyō
I did, I put Halberd in my secondary off-hand but I never had the chance to use it because no one would backpedal, and if they did it was becasue they were running away, in which case I just shot them in the back.
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9377
Reputation : 134
Join date : 2013-03-09
Age : 26
Location : Gensōkyō
Yes.Animaaal wrote:B.O.T.-Do daggers have the hightest lb/damage ratio (outside of casting tools?)
Only thing that outdamages it would be Bandit's Knife, and that's only because of the bleed, which rarely happens.
Also, I tested the R2s on an AFKer comparing BK to Dagger...
Dagger R2s hit A LOT more.
Only thing BK has over the Dagger would be bleed and slightly extra critical damage (around 100 damage difference).
Seignar- Insomniac
- Posts : 1206
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2012-08-07
I find it difficult to see the Dagger as "amazing". Let's compare it to something else, the Rapier:
1. The Rapier can poke. The dagger cannot.
2. The Rapier's R1 has medium reach while the Dagger has a small reach. You can argue you get better DPS with the dagger, but you forget that since the Dagger cannot poke, a smart Rapier player will just poke you and run off.
3. Rapier is better for backstabs hands-down.
4. The Strong Attack of the Rapier has considerably better reach than the Daggers and has the same properties.
The Dagger is only good if you buff it, but you're dodging all the issues it has. For example, the fact that someone would just avoid you until it ran out, the fact that the Dagger is only really efficient against someone with no poise and who is not conscious of said fact. Anything the Dagger could do the Rapier would do better.
The main difference between the Dagger and the Rapier is that due to their speeds, the Rapier requires more skill in the prediction department, while the Rapier requires reactions, but most of this game is prediction anyways.
1. The Rapier can poke. The dagger cannot.
2. The Rapier's R1 has medium reach while the Dagger has a small reach. You can argue you get better DPS with the dagger, but you forget that since the Dagger cannot poke, a smart Rapier player will just poke you and run off.
3. Rapier is better for backstabs hands-down.
4. The Strong Attack of the Rapier has considerably better reach than the Daggers and has the same properties.
The Dagger is only good if you buff it, but you're dodging all the issues it has. For example, the fact that someone would just avoid you until it ran out, the fact that the Dagger is only really efficient against someone with no poise and who is not conscious of said fact. Anything the Dagger could do the Rapier would do better.
The main difference between the Dagger and the Rapier is that due to their speeds, the Rapier requires more skill in the prediction department, while the Rapier requires reactions, but most of this game is prediction anyways.
Animaaal- Compulsory Poster
- Posts : 3419
Reputation : 175
Join date : 2013-01-17
Thats kinda what I was thinking.
Its because the Dark Silver Tracer can take advantage of both the Leo's and Hornet's.
I don't think you can count bleed though. It means little to a glass-cannon type of build, granted they'd prolly die before they bled out. And you can also roll cancel it, but I guess a backstab and be canceled in a way too.
Its because the Dark Silver Tracer can take advantage of both the Leo's and Hornet's.
I don't think you can count bleed though. It means little to a glass-cannon type of build, granted they'd prolly die before they bled out. And you can also roll cancel it, but I guess a backstab and be canceled in a way too.
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9377
Reputation : 134
Join date : 2013-03-09
Age : 26
Location : Gensōkyō
I am a heavy Rapier user, and although you do make good points, the Dagger's speed makes up for it. Length isn't the point here, and even if it was, the Dagger shouldn't have problems with that. Unlike most weapons, the Dagger is fast enough that if you get right beside someone who is backpedaling, you can still hit them before they get far enough away.
The Dagger's R2s are considerably better than any that I've experienced before, they're literally a faster version of a Straight Sword, with the exception of the 2H R2 which is unique and has long reach.
While the Rapier can poke, the Dagger won't need to because it's fast enough to hit and recover to get away before the opponent has time to react, so poking isn't needed. It also has horizontal swings, so it can cause a backstab cancel, one thing a Rapier lacks.
Although yes the parry and backstab damage is better, it won't matter because it still has high damage and if you don't kill the person, you can follow up with an R2 -> R1 combo which nets you an extra 300 damage compared to the Rapier which will only get about 200 damage on a follow-up as long as the person you're fighting isn't completely retarded.
Honestly, it's a toss-up between which one is better. If I had to choose, I would prefer the Dagger because honestly this thing is extremely overpowered if you know what you're doing. While I love the Rapier, the Dagger has perks that it doesn't.
Like I said about the Falchion, the Rapier only has two things over the Dagger: Reach and Criticals.
The Dagger's R2s are considerably better than any that I've experienced before, they're literally a faster version of a Straight Sword, with the exception of the 2H R2 which is unique and has long reach.
While the Rapier can poke, the Dagger won't need to because it's fast enough to hit and recover to get away before the opponent has time to react, so poking isn't needed. It also has horizontal swings, so it can cause a backstab cancel, one thing a Rapier lacks.
Although yes the parry and backstab damage is better, it won't matter because it still has high damage and if you don't kill the person, you can follow up with an R2 -> R1 combo which nets you an extra 300 damage compared to the Rapier which will only get about 200 damage on a follow-up as long as the person you're fighting isn't completely retarded.
Honestly, it's a toss-up between which one is better. If I had to choose, I would prefer the Dagger because honestly this thing is extremely overpowered if you know what you're doing. While I love the Rapier, the Dagger has perks that it doesn't.
Like I said about the Falchion, the Rapier only has two things over the Dagger: Reach and Criticals.
Animaaal- Compulsory Poster
- Posts : 3419
Reputation : 175
Join date : 2013-01-17
I thought the DST had the highest criticals?
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9377
Reputation : 134
Join date : 2013-03-09
Age : 26
Location : Gensōkyō
Dark Silver Tracer worse than a buffed Rapier at 40 DEX because of the hidden modifier and higher damage, but it outdamages an elemental as well as a +15 if it's not buffed.
User1- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9912
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2012-12-18
Chaos Rapier +5 with 10 Humanity has the highest. Sure of it.
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9377
Reputation : 134
Join date : 2013-03-09
Age : 26
Location : Gensōkyō
+15 with 40 DEX with almost any buff outdamages it.RenegadeCop wrote:Chaos Rapier +5 with 10 Humanity has the highest. Sure of it.
User1- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9912
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2012-12-18
I'm sure it can't be too much of a damage difference though.
Besides, we have all experienced that one guy who suddenly pulls out his Chaos Rapier +5 and Target Shield, thinking he can get easy parries, when he can't really parry for shiz.
Besides, we have all experienced that one guy who suddenly pulls out his Chaos Rapier +5 and Target Shield, thinking he can get easy parries, when he can't really parry for shiz.
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9377
Reputation : 134
Join date : 2013-03-09
Age : 26
Location : Gensōkyō
Ehh...
It's not much of a damage difference, but a buffed Rapier is stronger than Chaos.
It's not much of a damage difference, but a buffed Rapier is stronger than Chaos.
User1- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9912
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2012-12-18
All of the sl55 vit gougers will use it though.
Seignar- Insomniac
- Posts : 1206
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2012-08-07
Reach is important. What does speed matter if you can't get near them without getting killed? The Dagger is greatly outreached against a Rapier in both attack categories. Recovery Speed means nothing when anyone can simply block a Dagger because it deals no Poise or Stamina Damage (Which means you will also lose trades). It also lacks Bleed, which IS a great pressure tool against blocking. Your only direct counter is backstabbing and we all know that the defense has a higher % of succeeding than the offense.
The Rapier on the other hand doesn't have to contend to backstabbing because it can poke and has a long reaching Strong Attack (Which the Dagger doesn't; it goes far, but nothing extreme) for baits.
The Rapier on the other hand doesn't have to contend to backstabbing because it can poke and has a long reaching Strong Attack (Which the Dagger doesn't; it goes far, but nothing extreme) for baits.
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9377
Reputation : 134
Join date : 2013-03-09
Age : 26
Location : Gensōkyō
I can prove this to you through words, and you can test it yourself.
At 24/40, a +15 Rapier buffed with just Charcoal Resin is stronger than Chaos, because the Chaos AR is 376.
The +15 AR at 24/40 is 335. Charcoal Pine Resin adds 80 Fire Damage, bringing it up to 415 AR.
The Chaos Rapiers AR is 174/202, whereas the +15 Rapier's AR is 335/80.
It's pretty obvious which one wins at that point.
At 24/40, a +15 Rapier buffed with just Charcoal Resin is stronger than Chaos, because the Chaos AR is 376.
The +15 AR at 24/40 is 335. Charcoal Pine Resin adds 80 Fire Damage, bringing it up to 415 AR.
The Chaos Rapiers AR is 174/202, whereas the +15 Rapier's AR is 335/80.
It's pretty obvious which one wins at that point.
User1- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9912
Reputation : 106
Join date : 2012-12-18
I knew that. I had my opinion changed the first time you said that.
Animaaal- Compulsory Poster
- Posts : 3419
Reputation : 175
Join date : 2013-01-17
Seignar wrote:....Reach arounds are important...
WIN!!!
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9377
Reputation : 134
Join date : 2013-03-09
Age : 26
Location : Gensōkyō
Seignar wrote:Reach is important. What does speed matter if you can't get near them without getting killed? The Dagger is greatly outreached against a Rapier in both attack categories. Recovery Speed means nothing when anyone can simply block a Dagger because it deals no Poise or Stamina Damage (Which means you will also lose trades). It also lacks Bleed, which IS a great pressure tool against blocking. Your only direct counter is backstabbing and we all know that the defense has a higher % of succeeding than the offense.
The Rapier on the other hand doesn't have to contend to backstabbing because it can poke and has a long reaching Strong Attack (Which the Dagger doesn't; it goes far, but nothing extreme) for baits.
I have stunlocked lots of people who clearly have 40+ poise with the Dagger. Although yes, the Rapier may be more versatile than the Dagger, again, the Dagger has perks the Rapier doesn't.
Just to give an example you can probably relate to from being a Rapier user yourself:
If someone is spamming WoG, you can easily roll and punish them and still have time to roll through the next WoG. But there are times where it's very easy to mess up because lag comes into play. Being in the Forest, I fought a TON of WoG spammers, and I only got hit by one of them and that was because he wasn't completely retarded and knew how to throw off his casting time.
In general, the Rapier outclasses the Dagger, but the Dagger is much more versatile in its attacks compared to the Rapier. It depends on the situation which one would be better, but just know that the Rapier is not better than the Dagger just because it has reach. That's like saying the Falchion is better than the PGS.
Animaaal- Compulsory Poster
- Posts : 3419
Reputation : 175
Join date : 2013-01-17
Dibsville wrote:...I have stunlocked lots of people who clearly have 40+ poise with the Dagger...
If anyone is getting stunlocked from a dagger with 40 poise, then they need to play offline for a while and practice a little...just sayin man
Dibsville- Abyss Dweller
- Posts : 9377
Reputation : 134
Join date : 2013-03-09
Age : 26
Location : Gensōkyō
It's extremely easy to hit with the Dagger.Animaaal wrote:Dibsville wrote:...I have stunlocked lots of people who clearly have 40+ poise with the Dagger...
If anyone is getting stunlocked from a dagger with 40 poise, then they need to play offline for a while and practice a little...just sayin man
You'd be surprised how many people who were clearly good players got stunlocked.
|
|
|
