Your opinion on exploits such as Dead angling or Lag abuse?

Soul of Stray Demon wrote:If they are hacking, you should be able to use everything at your disposal to beat them regardless if it's an exploit or not.

I'd like to say that this isn't the case most of the time, but some days it is, sadly. So fine, against a hacker anything goes. I often disregard my build and pull out a GT and go crazy.

However, I think we can agree that in normal pvp, these mechanics were inevitable but not intended.

No we cannot say whether or not they were intended for certain. We can only make assertions about the possibility of them being intentional or unintentional.

I guess DkSII will be the final say. If these "exploits" are still around then obviously they must be intentional, but if they are not around then DkS was played in a way it was not meant to be.

I recall a very similar conversation about toggle escapes during the DeS days before DaS was released.

In actuality no matter what is or is not featured in DaS2 there will be people who will claim to know what was and was not intended and use this intention, the very will of the developers, to support their personal beliefs and playstyles.

It's the same with backstabs, they were blahblahblah in DeS and are currently blahblahbleckbleck and PvP shouldn't be about backstabs or dead angles or using twop along side offensive spells or attempting to OHKO people with Hornets or Beads and so on and so forth.

For whatever reason a game like Dark Souls where the player is given such a variety of options in both build and in decisions to make moment to moment in combat, when someone chooses different things or actions or weapons Some people get irrationally upset about it and demonize the behavior they do not approve of.

This isn't particularly directed at anyone specific as it's rarely been a problem with any forum events or in any instance where I've personally been playing with people from this forum, but it is certainly a general trend found in my inbox, all over youtube comments and even in youtube videos as content.

Well note that DeS and DkS use the same engine, which is why I said "we'll see," when it comes to DkSII.

hey its andres wrote:Well note that DeS and DkS use the same engine, which is why I said "we'll see," when it comes to DkSII.

Yup. I really don't think we would call it an exploit if it were intentional, And why would it be intentional? It's completely unrealistic and unfair to alot of players to break out of a stun lock, or hit through a shield.

hey its andres wrote:That's horrible logic! So you were okay with the infinite dragon shout gankers where one would shout and while the other slashes away? That's just ridiculous! Just because glitches are "in the game" does not mean they should be exploited or left alone.

I never saw fit to do those things, but people shouldn't be penalized for doing them.  They need to be patched out.

If one doesn't want to play with such things, they can generally avoid them.  I did so.  I disliked them and also TWoD, but once you start drawing the lines with glitches, it becomes arbitrary.  That's why I couldn't really frown on a dragon glitcher, knowing I'd shamelessly dead angle someone and put them in a stunlock.  Would I play vs one?  I'd probably avoid it, and if they continued to play like that they'd eventually wind up with primarily their own kin it the game didn't patch it.

I won't use "tumblebuff" aka "TWoD", even though it's an in-game glitch and I've seen it executed so know how.  However, while I'll report a hacker for infinite health or stamina, I refuse to report people when something so broken is really From's fault.

Drawing the line at any in-game glitch is fundamentally arbitrary.  TWoD might be overcentralizing and thus enough people would ban it in organized PvP, but ultimately things like toggle-escape and dead angles have the same impact; making things that would otherwise be much more viable in-game weaker relative to the dominant options.

Serious_Much wrote:Toggle escape however has no place in pvp. It's an indefensible exploit really that means you can abuse a lack of poise for surprise BS or to make stun lock weapons irrelevant.

This is not true. One can hitstun bs with any weapon that stunlocks to get around a toggle escape, and that bs is impossible to escape. if anything, the toggle escape is good in that it prevents me swinging 3 times with my zweih and following up with a bs for 2200+ damage. A buffed mace will deal 2000 damage with a 1 hit+bs stun combo. (600 for the first hit, 300 for first hit of bs, 1100 for second hit of bs, 300 being buff damage.) and a first hit toggle is really all someone has as a defense against such a technique, assuming that hit stuns.

Forum Pirate wrote:

Serious_Much wrote:Toggle escape however has no place in pvp. It's an indefensible exploit really that means you can abuse a lack of poise for surprise BS or to make stun lock weapons irrelevant.

This is not true. One can hitstun bs with any weapon that stunlocks to get around a toggle escape, and that bs is impossible to escape. if anything, the toggle escape is good in that it prevents me swinging 3 times with my zweih and following up with a bs for 2200+ damage. A buffed mace will deal 2000 damage with a 1 hit+bs stun combo. (600 for the first hit, 300 for first hit of bs, 1100 for second hit of bs, 300 being buff damage.) and a first hit toggle is really all someone has as a defense against such a technique, assuming that hit stuns.

 If they implement changes to remove toggle escape for next game that's an irrelevant point anyways as you can escape from a BS. Of course this is taking into account we are talking about next game, which is what my post was intended for.

Strength is only bad because stun locks don't exist in this game. Think about it, if you could actually stun lock someone because they decided not to use poise, then why should they be able to Toggle escape? It isn't fair for those people who just don't want to flip around with a katana or R1 spam gold tracer, or poke.

Exploits ruin PvP, even if they take skill and are accepted by the community.

It might still be impossible to escape from a hitstun, at least with smaller/faster weapons (ie mace.) We cannot know.



Again, name me 1 str weapon that stunlocks that isn't a hammer wilks. The zweih is quality, the mura is dex, the halberds are dex or quality.

Axes don't stunlock, the dgm doesn't stunlock, great hammers don't stunlock, the msgs doesn't stunlock (and never did, it would chain like 3 hits tops.) Str weapons are not about stunlocking, and never have been.

I don't consider strength weapons to be weapons that only take strength, every weapon takes a bit of dexterity because dexterity is how skilled you are with the weapon. Hammers are just pounding down on the ground so they don't take skill to wield.

Strength weapons are big weapons that take a decent amount of strength to be able to use the normal swinging motion.

Acarnatia wrote:
Roll immunity-sometimes this is ridiculous. Either shorten the invinsibility frames, or outright remove altogether.

The roll is symbolic. An actual dodge can happen over, under or around a weapon swing, without the need to get out of range to make it happen.



@ wilks,

1) you're wrong, str weapons are those that benifit almost exclusively from strength (else they're quality or dex)

2) great hammers are just pounding the ground so they don't take skill to wield. Greatswords are just pounding the ground so they don't take skill to wield. Great axes are just ponding the ground so they don't take skill to wield. Halberds are just pounding the ground so they don't take skill to weild.

Do i really need to continue showing the falsehood that is that arguement?

Acarnatia wrote:Forum, by that same logic, all archeologists are presumptuous or illogical. Archeology is an entire field of science dedicated to understanding people by the works the yleft behind, frequently without their own words. Add in people who study art and it's history, psychologists and sociologists,,along with varous analysts in a plethora of fields, and you just stated that a much larger group of people than gamers are 'presumptuous or illogical' without even knowing them yourself, meaning you yourself just came to a conclusion about at least millions of people by the same method that you just called presumptuous. I invite you to look at that.

I think a fairly good example of the basic idea of what From intended for (minus spells and elemental weapons) pvp is shown by npc fights in the game, and fights with npc invaders such as Kirk, Mildred, and Jeremiah. While, certainly, these do not reflect the wealth of weapons and spells and armor and rings available to players, it reflects the mechanics intended.

It is presumptious, but it is the exact opposite of illogical. the earth is not aman made creation with intillegent reasoning behind it, how a game works i n pvp most likely is.

Wilkinson3424 wrote:I don't consider strength weapons to be weapons that only take strength, every weapon takes a bit of dexterity because dexterity is how skilled you are with the weapon.

Key Words: "I don't consider".

I'm not saying that rolling to dodge has no place-it certainly does-I'm saying that with how it currently is, it's a bit unfair to any build that isn't using lightning-fast, tiny weapons. I've come across many players recently who time their rolls so that they don't take damage, even after I already hit them.
On the note of lagswitching being a necessary counter to stunlock, I think this is an issue that is caused by those weapons having imbalanced stunlocking capabilities and they should be altered, not countered by a glitch. For example, a zwei/greatsword; many times, I have been caught in a regular r1 and without using lagswitching, I die-and easily. As it is, it might as well be a OHKO without much of the risk/cost normally necessary that balances OHKO builds. (sacrificing a ring slot, min-maxing damage at the cost of defense, etc) This is a problem with those weapons, though-in a sense, overpowered if not for glitch and lag. The weapons should be altered, not compensated for by a apparently very abusable

glitch.

I thought the Hand Axe stunlocked?!?!?!

handaxe is more of a quality weapon, as you actually need some dex to make it do well. hence why pirate didn't include it I guess, also the dbf stunlocks low poise opponents... lol

Hand axe does abysmal poise damage, BUT if their poise is low enough it will stunlock, similarly to how the falchion can stunlock once it gets into a rhythm. I wouldn't recommend attempting this as your main strat but it can happen, and honestly I think the hand axe is an underused weapon (I mean on a Str or Quality buff build it's basically a replacement for the buffed falchion of infamy and it can kick which is a big plus in my book)


@ Weapon types. I Consider all E and the lower end of D scaling values as essentially negligible when deciding if a weapon is a STR or DEX or Quality kinda weapon.

Good examples of this are things like the Curved swords. They all have E scaling in Str, but are quite obviously Dex weapons. While the Black Knight Weapons and even the Greataxe and Golem axe have their E dex scaling.

I thought the Hand Axe did 36 and 53 poise damage like all other "axes"???

That's AWESOME for weighing 2 lbs......

Nope. Like the BKGA the Hand axe is an oddity that does less poise damage than the other weapons in it's weapon class. I can't seem to find an exact number, but it FEELS to me very similar to the Curved Swords poise damage, It's actually be great if someone awesome wouldn't mind doing some testing to figure out how much is does exactly. As I personally would like to know.

Man me too!

I'm glad you said something, thank you.

***edit***

And thank you too Sparkly.  

Forum Pirate wrote:It might still be impossible to escape from a hitstun, at least with smaller/faster weapons (ie mace.) We cannot know.



Again, name me 1 str weapon that stunlocks that isn't a hammer wilks. The zweih is quality, the mura is dex, the halberds are dex or quality.

Axes don't stunlock, the dgm doesn't stunlock, great hammers don't stunlock, the msgs doesn't stunlock (and never did, it would chain like 3 hits tops.)  Str weapons are not about stunlocking, and never have been.

Butcher Knife?
Just guessing tbh.
It depends what you think is stunlock. I always thought stunlock is when I hit someone and it staggers him long enough to get another hit in there that can't be avoided in any other way than using Toggle Escape.

Lot of weapons can do that, but if you meant infinite stunlock, then I think only few weapons still have that. One handed Clay and MLGS, Zwei...maybe all UGSs, maybe some axes.

Sentiel wrote:

Forum Pirate wrote:It might still be impossible to escape from a hitstun, at least with smaller/faster weapons (ie mace.) We cannot know.



Again, name me 1 str weapon that stunlocks that isn't a hammer wilks. The zweih is quality, the mura is dex, the halberds are dex or quality.

Axes don't stunlock, the dgm doesn't stunlock, great hammers don't stunlock, the msgs doesn't stunlock (and never did, it would chain like 3 hits tops.)  Str weapons are not about stunlocking, and never have been.

Butcher Knife?
Just guessing tbh.
It depends what you think is stunlock. I always thought stunlock is when I hit someone and it staggers him long enough to get another hit in there that can't be avoided in any other way than using Toggle Escape.

Lot of weapons can do that, but if you meant infinite stunlock, then I think only few weapons still have that. One handed Clay and MLGS, Zwei...maybe all UGSs, maybe some axes.

Small hammers stunlock until stamina runs out i.e. pickaxe, mace, small clubs and tail axe.