Is dead angling an exploit?

A similar topic was recently locked but it brought up a question for me because someone brought up doubt on whether dead angling was a glitch or not. Up to this point I've always thought it was a glitch and that there really wasn't a debate on the subject. Here's my understanding of how it works, which could be wrong:

In PvP when a player is hit, the game calculates if they blocked or not by looking at both of their facing angles. If they were both facing in the same direction then the hitter must have been behind the hittee and it goes through.

As far as I know this is the same mechanic that allows you to turn around for unblockable WoG, which I would think points to it being a glitch if nothing else does.

So if I've got the reasoning wrong or if anyone has arguments for the other side, I'd love to hear it.

Dibsville wrote:In my opinion, it's neither.

Please explain further, because that would seem to be logically impossible. Unless you're saying dead angling doesn't exist?

Yes, obviously.

It's as much a glitch as bunnyhopping in FPS games.

It only works on other players, and not NPCs. Therefore, I'm inclined to believe it is intentional not for the depth it adds, but because it makes it easier to process hits on the fly for PvP where it tries to meet a real-time constraint as best as possible.

Saturday-Saint wrote:Yes, obviously.

Damn you Saint.
I just logged in and you already stole both of my upvotes for this day.

I think it's both.

I doubt From intended Dead Angling to be in the game, but I'm sure they intend it to be there now because they would have patched it by now.

roanispe wrote:It only works on other players, and not NPCs. Therefore, I'm inclined to believe it is intentional not for the depth it adds, but because it makes it easier to process hits on the fly for PvP where it tries to meet a real-time constraint as best as possible.

They almost certainly intended for block detection to be simplified for PC's, but I do not think that dead angling is intended behavior.

I think it's viewed a necessary evil to expedite calculations, and isn't desired but begrudgingly and knowingly kept. I do believe they'll remove it as soon as they believe they have the computational power to allow them to do away with the abstraction which could come as soon as Dark Souls 2. To be honest, thinking how to actually compute it doesn't seem that difficult. It's actually a neat little thing to mull over, and the complexity really depends on how the define the player's position and angle of facing.

It[dead angle] as well as toggle escape were both present in Demon's and known about in the pvp community. Their reappearance in Dark souls always seemed quite intentional to me. Sorta the same way L canceling was kept in melee after the technique was discovered in the original super smash bros. game.

Saturday-Saint wrote:

roanispe wrote:It only works on other players, and not NPCs. Therefore, I'm inclined to believe it is intentional not for the depth it adds, but because it makes it easier to process hits on the fly for PvP where it tries to meet a real-time constraint as best as possible.

They almost certainly intended for block detection to be simplified for PC's, but I do not think that dead angling is intended behavior.

Unless From comes out and says it isn't, we're going to have to rule "don't know for sure".  Dead angles could very well have been included due to design limitations, with their implications noted.

IMO things like dead angles and most other "cheap" tactics are heavily exacerbated by, if not an issue because of, lag.  Dead angles are not the same thing as client side hit detection...or are they?  I know one other game with lag compensation allowing "dead angles" with no such mechanic in existence; call of duty.  In the lag, it is 100% possible to get shot through a riot shield, both on your screen and theirs.  The game has to update angles being faced but it doesn't do that equally on both sides, resulting in a lot of awkward results.

TLDR: I bet dead-angling seems less powerful if one were to play over LAN...assuming they didn't still add some fake delay ^_^.

Blocking is checked 100% by the client of the person getting hit.

It's a mechanical error, a glitch. There are tons of these "Secrets to Dark Souls PVP." They all involve using small exploits in the combat system to get an unintended outcome (unintended by the developers). Dead Angling is by far the most "fair" one there is.

Is it a glitch? Yes. Does it add good depth to the combat? Yes. Is it worthy of being fixed? Numerous patches that ignore it say no.

Dead angle Zwei? Well, they usually do a pattern (which side they rotate first), so adjust and parry them (they won't expect that).

Dead angle WoG? Roll through it and BS them (their back is to you).

Another thing is it helps teach you not to press and hold L1 for an entire fight.

Sure, there are pluses and minuses to this dead angle, but IMO, the pluses vastly outweigh the minuses.

Blocking is checked 100% by the client of the person getting hit.

.  Nothing about internet connections that try to normalize lag is 100%, except possibly for inconsistency ^_^.

Dead angle Zwei? Well, they usually do a pattern (which side they rotate first), so adjust and parry them (they won't expect that).

Anybody who has a pattern can get parried regardless of weapon, unless its stuff like whips or great combustion.  I've used the zwei a ton lately (almost exclusively unlocked with this particular weapon), and one thing I've started doing is SOMETIMES going right for dead angle (predicting where they'll go), sometimes starting with a forward one and then unlocked throwing a 2nd r1 in a different direction...

But sometimes, I'll just run around unlocked and see if they get close enough to trade (I run midroll high poise), seeing if I can bait attacks/fish attempts/parries.  Screwing up and getting parried is obviously very devastating, but then so is getting pivot-BS'd while trying to parry .

Somewhat amusingly today, I really did "get back up and pwn that guy" after getting parried; he was good player and toggle escaped/parried me.  On getting up he went for another one, but I knew I could poise tank a hit and decided to risk going for a poise pivot BS.  One too many parry attempts = BS and the zwei BS was enough to kill him at that range.

IMO the best way to deal with zwei or other big stunlock weapons, and what gives me the most problems if I don't switch off, are effective pokes.  Spears, rapiers, strong bow users...basically anything that can smack + roll back in between two 2h r1s is a big problem for zwei and you really have to start looking to close distance + pressure/predict as the zwei user to win that.

You're a catbro right?  It's pretty fun in the forest and I'd recommend giving it a try if you've not done so yet .  I've been darkwraithing heavily there.  Unlocked UGS is good times, at least until the multiple WoG spam from a gank squad or similar shows up; eventually my 120 build will have vow of silence for such occasions but not yet sadly.

The only thing i do mind about dead angling is people running around in circles like they're winding up for something. Just looks bloody stupid.

Can't parry a dead angle.

If that were the case, it wouldn't be a glitch and you would also be able to block it.

U can its just really hard to do

Since this discussion keeps coming up, I should add so people can differentiate and the argument can hopefully stop.

A glitch is a completely unintended, random, unforeseen occurrence that game developers didn't see coming and have little idea of how it's happening. Bugs are forms of glitches that persist and can be easily recreated. Glitches and bugs are always the top priority of patching. An example of a glitch is getting stuck on the landscape. An example of a bug is the bottomless box share.

An exploit is the player's cunning use of an in game mechanic to create unintended results and give themselves an advantage. As exploits are player generated, and by large dependent on core game mechanics, they are seldom patched unless they are game breaking.

Balancing is when developers look at the practical application of intended mechanics/items/skills and how the playerbase is acting with it and decide to intervene to prevent unintended overpowered combinations. This is what happened to the fog ring, etc.

Dead angling is, from the above, an exploit, and it is very unlikely to be removed because the effects of it are not gamebreaking and the developer has bigger issues to consider and would have to rework the mechanic completely.

AnCapaillMor wrote:The only thing i do mind about dead angling is people running around in circles like they're winding up for something. Just looks bloody stupid.

What do you mean?  Usually a dead angle involves a last second turn when it comes to weapons...and heck it's better on WoG and such that way too.  IMO best is to not turn 180 but rather something a bit more than 90 degrees to a side; it makes it extremely hard to block or parry.  I don't see how running in circles helps dead angling any more than it helps anything else lol.

The only reason it is not gamebreaking is because of the unreliability of it. It's pretty hard (and a bit boring) to only win a fight using dead angling. Even against turtles, lagstabs are way more effective and easier to implement. The only real use for dead angling is to finish someone off, which has more effective methods as well.

Laveidem wrote:It's as much a glitch as bunnyhopping in FPS games.

idtech3 engine only - a bug at first, then the best feature ever. i will never forget the uncountable hours of hopping around in Q3A, RTCW and W:ET

Wolfof Phyrexia wrote:U can its just really hard to do

If you can parry a dead angle, it wasn't a dead angle in the first place. A dead angle completely bypasses a shield when blocking. 

Why would it be any different if you were parrying know what i mean?