Is dead angling an exploit?

You have to expose you're back in order to block it, and then wait for the blocking animation to complete it's cycle, making it largely ineffective in dealing with a good dead angler, because said dead angler becomes

That depends on the weapon really.  Something slow like the Zwei might not allow a BS before the person blocking it recovers, and attempting a DA turns the back too.  "Best connection wins"?

Animaaal wrote:In regards to blocking dead angles:

-A fast rollers perspective...
If you're trying to block das as a fast roller you're doing it wrong...no?

-A mid-rollers perspective....
Yes, you can block it.  However, if the person who is trying to dead angle you realizes that you are capable of blocking it, they will wait for you to block it and backstab you. You have to expose you're back in order to block it, and then wait for the blocking animation to complete it's cycle, making it largely ineffective in dealing with a good dead angler, because said dead angler becomes..... 

As I said, I'm looking for a method to parry DAs, or block. A method that will negate damage done by the DA attack, but will not require rolling.

If someone comes at me with a weapon, I'll block it. If the person decides to use this "exploit" I still want to block/parry it. I refuse to be manipulated by an "exploit" and being forced to a roll. That's why I eat Mushrooms and DBs when people DA me. They ignore my shield, I'll ignore their attacks. My twisted sense for logic sees no problem there. But I can't heal in FCs, cos everybody would freak out, while using "exploits" is ok. So I'm looking for a way to not fight DAs, but turn the "exploit" back into a normal attack and continue fighting just as if it didn't exist.

Turning around to block it, as Forum suggested seems as a very risky, yet possible to do idea. If I can also parry like this, I can learn the timing to parry DAs like this. But I want to know if it's technically possible, because some here say it is, while others say it is not.

I'd chain stab you and/or dip into my 400 dbs. I'd put money you use exploits you haven't even realized are exploits.



you should be able to partial parry that way at least, and with heavy weapons this could save you from the stun of blocking so they don't bs you.

Faster weapons don't stun for long, so I wouldn't guess that would be a problem.

From what I understand it is possible to partial parry a dead angle, but not parry. It's the same reason why you cannot parry the tip of a spear. You need tobe in range for a parry to be successful.

^Don't quote me on this. Unless it's right, in which case I take FULL credit.

Strange enough, most of the turtlers I run in to use a medium shield instead of a greatshield. Now THAT is just asking for a dead angle.

because being guard broken as a fast roller is a non-issue, and mid shields can parry.

That's why I eat Mushrooms and DBs when people DA me. They ignore my shield, I'll ignore their attacks. My twisted sense for logic sees no problem there.

Using 3rd party engines to cheat is not the same as using in-game options, regardless of whether you agree with those in-game options.

Unless, of course, you're running NG ++++++ to get enough blessings and mushrooms, taking one as a gift, etc to store them just for a few pvp matches each time?

Cheating is never an acceptable response to people playing legit.  While a save that lets you make MP builds is a good thing, this kind of stuff is really irritating because w/o 3rd party software it would be impossible.  It's like using only crystal weapons because you have 99 slabs.

I can tolerate anything in this game, except for using 3rd party software to get an advantage you would not have otherwise.  That is, by definition and indisputably, cheating.  You're no longer player Dark Souls then, you're playing "Dark Souls hack: anywhere from infinite items you wouldn't get otherwise to simply unkillable".  Fun.

I'd chain stab you and/or dip into my 400 dbs. I'd put money you use exploits you haven't even realized are exploits.

Anything that gets deemed overpowered might be considered exploitative lol.  Take this kind of build for example:

http://mmdks.com/33xv

A lot of people would take serious issue with this build.  But, it's as legit a stat distribution as a buff build, or someone grabbing spells...incidentally both things people have also said are cheap.  Everything is cheap.  I'm sure PW boosted chaos rapier backstabs from a ninja flipping giantmom would be fun, especially since the primary weapon gets max scaling and can stunlock!  And look!  No DA .  Maybe we can even use Sentiel's logic, see a DA attempt or some other "exploit" we don't like, and chug DB's to take care of the healing problem with PW, getting all that stamina recovery and damage as a freebie  .

I know you were just making an example, but that build is FAR from being over powered.

I also find it strange that when someone points out imbalances they are accused of crying op.

ie
-16 intelligence for DB
-The HWWC
-Stamina regeneration.
-etc.

There is a logical argument on both sides of the fence concerning DAs.  I think the game would be better without them, but that's because I don't mind 5 minute fights.

As reim says all the time, "Its all about perspective".

Also, the mule has been WIDELY accepted in the pvp community (not by me personally, although I don't hate on people for using it).  It gives you tools for pvp, those tools are usually used by communities/factions that say "nothing is unacceptable", so in turn, I don't see why using the items it gives you to be unacceptable in  a "survival of the fittest" environment.  I don't know why those types of clubs don't allow DBs and mushrooming, given their published mentality.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, most characters are in NG+ when they are ready for pvp. If he has DB then he obviously goes through most of the DLC so getting all the mushrooms would not be too much of a hassle. If he only does it in those situations, which are not too common depending on who, where, and how you fight, then that should be plenty. I always get divine blessings in my playthroughs in case I run into a hacker.

my dbs are leftovers from the bb days, I'm way to lazy to have built all the characters I have through pve.

In any given game, exploiting the game to gain the largest possible advantage is kind of the point. Are you not exploiting someones predictability when you parry? Are you not exploiting your weapon when you land a hitstun-bs? Are you not exploiting someones idiocy when you bait?

The point is to get an unfair advantage. This rarely works of course, because anything truly unfair is generally fixed or banned (dragonhead), but that is the goal. To, through knowledge and skill, win the fight before it even starts because your opponent is helpless before you. Not only does this drive the meta forward, it pushes people of all skill and knowledge levels to improve so they might catch up to or surpass the abilities of others.

The reason for generally not allowing item healing in fcs, is that a fairly even match is no longer about who is better (at the moment) its about who has more healing items (because they can used so quickly) and they drag out fights to absurd lengths. (I've been a fight where every time I landed a hit they used a db, it took half an hour. Half a really boring and frustrating hour) It also makes it imperative that one farm ridiculous amounts of the healing items.

The reason healing was more accepted in des was that any decent player had throwing knives, and would stuff your healing with them should you try.

Well, its impossible to argue that logic.  

Sorta on topic...

Is it just me, or does it seem like a lot of conversations are subconsciously rooted in the "This is what I want out of Dark Souls 2" mentality???

I know I've unintentionally done it, and even this thread a couple of pages ago seemed to take a turn in that direction...."subconsciously".

Oh well, I think that would be a natural unintentional side-effect from a community like this when having these sorts of conversations.

***edit***

I don't think there's a middle ground to "nothing is unacceptable".  It is either that way or its not. Its very contradictory to say, "we have no rules but you can't use xyz".

I also think the human intellect could make the game more balanced with community rules.  Its in our nature to make things better...or worse...depends on who you talk to.

Also, the mule has been WIDELY accepted in the pvp community (not by me personally, although I don't hate on people for using it).  It gives you tools for pvp, those tools are usually used by communities/factions that say "nothing is unacceptable", so in turn, I don't see why using the items it gives you to be unacceptable in  a "survival of the fittest" environment.  I don't know why those types of clubs don't allow DBs and mushrooming, given their published mentality.

The problem with this perspective is that while things like +15 weapons and fully upgraded armor are easy to attain in a regular playthrough, infinite slabs for crystal weapons > NG++ divine blessings/shrooms are not practical to acquire in any number.  There's a critical difference here; you are essentially saying it is OK for anybody who *doesn't* mule to have a material disadvantage that could only be matched with literally days of PvE, PER CHARACTER. 

That's a real barrier, and in both the case of DB/Shrooms and the case of crystal weapons, it is the core barrier From included towards the usage of these things.  People are bypassing this, not with in-game choices, but rather with 3rd party software.  If we were intended to have easy access to this stuff, From would have allowed us to copy saves within the game.  Instead, From actively sought to block this, and did so for anybody who doesn't use 3rd party cheats/system/game tampering.

Dead Angling HAS nothing on using 3rd party software.  Chugging 5-6 DB in the forest doesn't annoy me as much as frozen HP bars and the waste-of-humanity excuses people come up with for freezing HP, but it's still cheating unless those DB were picked up through the multiple playthroughs required to attain them.

But they weren't.  I've seen one guy use 15 in a night on me alone, and still only kill me 1/3 times.  This guy was flagrantly cheating; his mobs were NG and that # DB were impossible.  But with Sentiel's logic for chugging DB, it would all be ok as long as I used an "exploit" like dead angles, hornet ring, or any other option that players don't like.  Okay to cheat?  No.  Cheating isn't okay.  It's a violation of the terms of service of the game, and its existence in this capacity is a detriment.

I'd be the first one to advocate a "build character for PvP only" mode where you get all the tools you need, or something equalizing like "you can copy your own saves", but we don't have them.  By design.

 

Its very contradictory to say, "we have no rules but you can't use xyz".

There is nothing contradictory about "We are playing dark souls, not a hacked version of dark souls with impossible items for your NG".

I would go so far as to ban the mule, since it's 3rd party software.  Of course, I'm not sure how you'd catch someone using it.

Forum Pirate wrote:In any given game, exploiting the game to gain the largest possible advantage is kind of the point. Are you not exploiting someones predictability when you parry? Are you not exploiting your weapon when you land a hitstun-bs? Are you not exploiting someones idiocy when you bait?

The point is to get an unfair advantage. This rarely works of course, because anything truly unfair is generally fixed or banned (dragonhead), but that is the goal. To, through knowledge and skill, win the fight before it even starts because your opponent is helpless before you. Not only does this drive the meta forward, it pushes people of all skill and knowledge levels to improve so they might catch up to or surpass the abilities of others.

So things like invisible pursuers/homing or roll swapping drive the meta forward?

@Me

Oh I agree man.  I'm not a fan of the mule for all kinds of reasons.  I think the easiest way to catch a mule would be to see if they've bought the dlc or not, and had copies of the dlc spells (since they are not droppable).  Skare brought that up in a different thread somewhere.

And also, I wasn't saying you were contradicting yourself.

And lastly, Sentiel (as you pointed out) might not be using the mule.  He might be in NG 7 on all characters and/or started a "trading shop" and obtained all he needed through means that do not include..."hacking".

However, the main argument behind the mule is, "I don't need to farm I can play pve with my eyes closed".  I have a family and can understand this mentality and agree with it.  There should be a better way to speed run pvp toons, or "relevel".  I just think the current option available is a HORRIBLE substitute.

In end, I'm  now.

@Scotty

I dont think he's saying that. The meta has rules, they just don't like to (in some cases) admit them or expand on them, which is their prerogative.

TheMeInTeam wrote:But with Sentiel's logic for chugging DB, it would all be ok as long as I used an "exploit" like dead angles, hornet ring, or any other option that players don't like.

I don't think this is quite fair. I mean the purpose of this thread was discussion on whether dead angling is an exploit or not. Unless you're saying that dead angles are an intended mechanic and not just a side effect of imperfect coding, you shouldn't put it in quotes and group it with things that are not exploits.

I personally don't have a problem with dead angles because i don't block.

So i can't feel anyones pain.

If someone has a big weapon, all i do is bait the attack a couple times, get them frustrated, and attack myself. It works for me 95% of the time. If i get dead angled, oh well. I'll toggle escape.

Wahhhh.

If i die, oh well. I think of what i did wrong, and next time i fight that person i know what to expect.

And about mules, who cares.  Like Animaaal once said, yeah it ruins co-op. But there becomes a point where you should be able to run through the game yourself without help. I don't like co-op. It gives the bosses more health and people just get in the way.

Mules have to go through everything like everyone else. Bells, Sens, Lord Vessel. Everything.

If you have a mule you don't automatically have a complete game. You just have everything in the game to make any kind of build you want. That's all it is. It's a tool, to experiment with PVP. You can find a weapon you like and make a perfect build without spending hours upon hours dealing with grinding souls.

There's a difference between a veteran in the Souls series getting a mule, and a completely new guy getting a mule. If you haven't experienced the pain and anguish that comes with being a new guy to Dark Souls/Demon Souls, you shouldn't have a mule. Even if new guys do get mules, they don't have the skills anyway.

Edit:  Deleted.  It is accurate to say I was off topic.  If you have these things w/o the mule, then great.  Use them all you want, without regard for the opinions w/ others.  That is consistent with the game.  IMO use them even if people don't DA, if consider it worth it.

My apologies.

The mule itself giving people impossible freebies is cheating though.  I'm happy to hear that one person didn't get these items this way.  Terms of service are the console's, and they ban 3rd party stuff giving players an advantage.  If it could be detected, mule would be bannable under ToS.

I'm a person that prides himself on the fact the he never cheats. Not even in GTA.
Calling me a cheater, even unitentionally, or not directly is the one of the few things that can really piss me off. This is the second topic about DAs where I mentioned that I heal and all sh*t goes down on me. There's people using glitch (exploit if you will), that bypass my shield. Lot of you here defend that exploit by saying it "helps dealing with turtles", or "it's here since DeS", or "it add depths to PvP", while I disagree with all of those, do I call you cheaters for using it? No. But I get called a cheater, that uses some godknowswhat software.

I even got a modded Crystal Weapon that did insta Curse and huge damage, from a random invader and deleted it. I was tempted to keep it, I admit, but still got rid of it.

For your information. I lost my Save File (for the second time) after BB glitch was removed, but way before Mule (I don't even know how to use that thing). I got all the DBs and Shrooms thanks to trading and hard farming NGs. It's not like somebody came and gave me 99 of those. I got 1-3 per trade. People usually don't want them and think that it's a fair trade for a few Chunks, or a Slab, so why not. Then I moved them from my SL1 trade toon to my SL 100 PvP build I use most of the time.
I kept the number thanks to PS+, that much I will admit. However that is not unfair. You can do it on any other platform as well, only with different methods.

On my defence, I only use these if I face a hacker, or a glitcher. I consider DA users one of those, but none at the same time. In my eyes, it's on the same level as TWoD (technically), but it's not such an issue when it's used as TWoD is. As such DA users aren't any sort of cheaters imho, but unless I read a description on Mura, Zwei and other usual weapons used to DA that they can bypass shields, I won't acknowledge DAs as intended mechanic, but rather something that is too problematic to remove, but does too little damage to the game that it's not worth the trouble of removing it.
It's just something that I deem "unfair" because it robs me from my ability to block and parry, which no melee weapon can. Not even Shotel.

Lastly. After reading this, drop the topic of my healing items please, unless you want Fex to come and lock this thread as she did the previous one.  

Forum Pirate wrote:you should be able to partial parry that way at least, and with heavy weapons this could save you from the stun of blocking so they don't bs you.

Faster weapons don't stun for long, so I wouldn't guess that would be a problem.

Animaaal wrote:From what I understand it is possible to partial parry a dead angle, but not parry.  It's the same reason why you cannot parry the tip of a spear.  You need tobe in range for a parry to be successful.

^Don't quote me on this.  Unless it's right, in which case I take FULL credit.

I've tried parrying friend's Mura and keep failing every time. Even if I try different timing. We got bored, but I'd like to do some more testing if I get the chance.
Even a partial parry would be nice, because I could just do that and proceed to bs, since my opponent has his back to me.

I want to restore my shield's purpose. I bet some, if not most of you will ponder as to why. Especially since you don't block.
Lag my friends. I can't trust my life to rolling if the game lags and has latency as it does. On tiny lagspike when evading an attack and I'm dead, or in some serious trouble. But blocking with a shield has no such issue, unless there's the typical dial-up invader who backstabs you from Mars.

TheMeInTeam wrote: But with Sentiel's logic for chugging DB, it would all be ok as long as I used an "exploit" like dead angles, hornet ring, or any other option that players don't like.  Okay to cheat?  No.  Cheating isn't okay.  It's a violation of the terms of service of the game, and its existence in this capacity is a detriment.

Exploit yes. Ingame items like Hornet Ring? Wtf why? What's wrong with a ring?

Hate to break it to you, but we don't agree to any terms upon playing online, unlike we did in DeS. Maybe there's something in maunal, that doesn't require onlline accepting, of pressing "Yes, I agree to the terms". Don't wanna look right now, but hey, if there is, I can give you a list of 20+ PS3 users that use modded weapons, or have hacked HP and they're still around. What's a guy that heals with legit obtained items and using PS+ (which is not against any terms whatsoever ) in comparison to those pricks?


As for the Mule issue.
I don't fully understand how it works, but I heard that the Mule is what we have to thank for all the hackers with infinite HP and modded weapons coming to PS3. If that's true, then I hate it, no matter what positive things it may brought along with those guys.

ScottyDoesKnow wrote:

Forum Pirate wrote:In any given game, exploiting the game to gain the largest possible advantage is kind of the point. Are you not exploiting someones predictability when you parry? Are you not exploiting your weapon when you land a hitstun-bs? Are you not exploiting someones idiocy when you bait?

The point is to get an unfair advantage. This rarely works of course, because anything truly unfair is generally fixed or banned (dragonhead), but that is the goal. To, through knowledge and skill, win the fight before it even starts because your opponent is helpless before you. Not only does this drive the meta forward, it pushes people of all skill and knowledge levels to improve so they might catch up to or surpass the abilities of others.

So things like invisible pursuers/homing or roll swapping drive the meta forward?

No, that falls under "unfair" in that both players do not have access to it in any given situation, just the host/hackers/really terible lag, that last situation being uncontrollable. one can lag switch, but thats 3rd party interference and therefor, cheating.

TooLeet wrote:...I personally don't have a problem with dead angles because i don't block...

I feel the same.  I haven't went past 9 poise in idk how long.  I use a Darkhand for OH SH!T moments, and the damage from a partial parry in significantly lower than bare fisting.

TooLeet wrote:.... I don't like co-op...

I've been lovin it lately lol.  I've been "mentoring" a couple buds who've never played while we Skype and drink.  It's...been...a...blast.

And also, I just  LOVE being a phantom in Anor.  I love it when we're entering the main hall and get invaded.  I stand in that hallway with the Silver Knights and Prowling Demon and get all, "You want my host?!?!?!....you gotta go through me *****! "  And since I'm in my pve gear and they obviously are not, it's usually a REALLY fun challenge.

Sentiel wrote:...As for the Mule issue.
I don't fully understand how it works, but I heard that the Mule is what we have to thank for all the hackers with infinite HP and modded weapons coming to PS3. If that's true, then I hate it, no matter what positive things it may brought along with those guys....

It is true.  The reports are too plentiful, and I ran into my first (confirmed) hacker a few days ago.  He put pine resin on his TWoP.  It was quite a sight.

I would like to specifically apologize to Sentiel.  I went overboard, and made assumptions I never should have made.

IMO using any legit-acquired item is fair game under any circumstance unless you agreed before hand not to do it.  I also feel this way about DA, toggle escapes, and everything else that's part of the game directly.  TWoD isn't bannable by Sony/Xbox unless it requires hacking, though it's bad enough to make MP trivially pointless.  DA don't fit that category, especially because one's ability to do it at all is highly situational.

It's funny people complain about mules, yet at the top of the Dks character planner it gives you a link to the Mega Mule LOL.

Anyways, we understand what your saying Sentinel. But it's not going anywhere. It's gonna continue to happen. 

Acceptance is step 1.

When you see someone with a big weapon, don't block. I don't block period and i have no reason to. My nice little circle button works wonders. Bait their DA or whatever, and BS em. Do whatever you gotta do. It's not game breaking.

Funny i had a locked thread a couple days ago about GT spamming and everyone said "9/10 players don't have a problem with this dadada"

Well, 9/10 players don't have a problem with DA. 

And all the mega mule is, is a already saved file with filled with characters with every weapon/item in the game except mushrooms and db's. It has nothing to do with hackers. There were hackers way before Mega Mule.

The mule is to blame for the popularization of hacking on PS3.

Dead Angling is a glitch, and so is Toggle Escape.
On my stream, prior to now, I've been stunlocked before and people have asked me why i didn't TE out of it, and my response has always been "Because it's a glitch, and a rude one at that".

That is my stance on dead angling as well. They are limitations of the game engine, and it doesn't make them ok to use. Is it ok for me to make my homing soul mass invisible? I can do it on command, i know mechanically what causes the spell to be invisible. There is also certain places on the map that one can stand to become invisible, until the opponent gets over a certain line that loads graphics in the area... is that ok?

'cause if Dead Angling and Toggle Escape is ok, than why isn't spellswap, invisible spell graphics, and Move Speed desynch fine?

Animaaal wrote:He put pine resin on his TWoP.  It was quite a sight.

He wot?
I imagine it as the Running Firestorm from DeS.

TheMeInTeam wrote:I would like to specifically apologize to Sentiel.  I went overboard, and made assumptions I never should have made.

IMO using any legit-acquired item is fair game under any circumstance unless you agreed before hand not to do it.  I also feel this way about DA, toggle escapes, and everything else that's part of the game directly.  TWoD isn't bannable by Sony/Xbox unless it requires hacking, though it's bad enough to make MP trivially pointless.  DA don't fit that category, especially because one's ability to do it at all is highly situational.

Thank you.

It's the reason why I look for way to return my shield's it's viability in PvP. While I can heal it off, if I'm to fight in a FC, I don't want to heal there. So I'm searching for a different way to fight DAs.

What I meant aboud DAs and TWoD being the same, was only the part that both of those ignore shields. Having a 10 meter field of constant unblockable damage is way too ridiculous to even compare to anything else.


I would love to have skill like Animaaal. To do PvP without shield and even without Poise. I just can't. I PvP every day and every day I PvP, I get hit with melee attacks and spells that should never hit me, even with latency from Uranus. That's when Poise and shield save my butt and give me a chance to fight back.
Most notably MLGS. That thing can sometimes hit me as I exit a roll that was away from my opponent, thus hitting me over a distance that even a SKS can't reach.