The Darkroot Woods

Hi there, I'm Tolvo McLure. You might remember me from such independant films as Cream Corn, and Green Harvest. I'm here to talk with you about a small area of Lordron people tend to show little interest in, the Forest.

Now then, there have been many rumors going around about a certain Artorias who has a grave found in here, however little talk is made about the whole of the area and other important characters and creatures who reside in it. I'm here to open up a discussion about ideas pertaining to the forest, as I often find myself in it and wondering at the relics I see all about. Topic ideas, Is this Oocatile, why is there a Gravelord Sword at Artorias' Grave, Why is the body holding the Hornet's Ring a female curled up against the grave, what does the cursive english looking writing on Artorias' grave say, why is the hydra here, what business does Seath have in the forest, is Shiva possibly a very evil man, and who was the blacksmith?

I'll be waiting to post until I see if anyone is actually interested in this, I'd hate to post my ideas and findings without anyone else wanting to actually discuss them with me.

I'd like to see your findings. However I havent spent much time in the forest so I wouldnt be able to discuss much.

EDIT: I thought the sword on his grave was his pre falling sword, not a gravelord sword?

Are there any areas of particular interest to you? For about the past hour I've actually just been examining the graveyard of Artorias.

Well obviously Im interested in Shiva. Im now interested in this sword on the grave. And that the forest could be Oolacile has always intrigued me. There are enough ruins around the place to suggest it has greater meaning.

I'm eating a delicious muffin with Sausage, Cheese, and eggs on it dripping with Juice as I type this. So bare with me if some of my words are replaced with tasty ideas and feelings.

Alright, first I'll get to the weapons around the graveyard. I've noticed these weapons specifically, Mail Breaker, Rapier, Estoc, Great Lord Great Sword, Greatsword, Long Sword, Claymore, Balder Side Sword. With this, you can see a wide variety of people have met their end, all blade users for some reason. Here's the interesting part, all weapons of knights in the game. Some I have to infer, like the Mail Breaker and Estoc, but the rest are all used by knights of various factions. In fact something of interest, there are two NPC's in the forest who do not respawn when killed outside of Shiva and his guard. The Knight, and the Pharis Woman. Now, the Pharis woman drops rare loot, as such it could be seen you can only fight her once to get it. The other, is a Knight. He uses I believe a Claymore, and a Knight Shield. Now, why does this man seem out of place? I need to ponder this more, but his lack of respawn has been bothering me recently. Now back to the weapons, these all appear to be the weapons of Knights who fought their way to the Graveyard. In fact the Greatsword there is not like the one Tarkus or you use, it is the Size of if not larger than the one you can see in the hands of the Berinike Knight in the Painted World. Doesn't this strike anyone else as a bit odd, the weapons of all of these various knights? It was believed that this place is protected to keep bandits and theives from stealing from the grave, yet what is their to steal? The only things that can be gained here are the Sword of Artorias, and his covenant. Now you might say those are worth protecting, here's a big question. Sif has claimed the lives of many here, supposedly. So why does there need to be a band of hunters here, to deter people from Sif maybe? Or to test them? I've actually wondered if this entire area for a time is actually an entire proving ground, and that maybe the Non-Respawning Knight had something to do with it. I mean really, to get the Covenant of Artorias, you need to fight, Giant Cats, Tree Monsters, a Hydra, and a band of hunters who all work together against you. Finally, you have to fight a gigantic wolf that can easily break through a person's shield, and is extremely deadly. Isn't this a bit of overkill? Shouldn't any of these one things really be enough, why is this so worth protecting? Alvina doesn't seem too keen on Sif either, and again the Graveyard holds two things of importance. The sword and ring. Alvina might do this out of her friendship and platonic love for Artorias, but she just never struck me as the type. She is devious, believes in killing by any means, and claiming things from the dead. Why would someone like this care so much about the belongings of a dead person or their grave for sentimental value? Another thing of Interest, this is where the Grave of Artorias is found correct? It is also where, other graves are found. You might say, these are the graves of tresspassers. But, they're all extremely old and worn. As well, who could build these graves, bury bodies, and place markers amongst a battlefield where swords pierce the earth? Sif doesn't let any near. I believe this was actually a grave to Knights, and that Artorias was merely given a grave here as well.

I'll post more in just a bit, was just hoping I could get some feedback on what I have so far, I hope I'm not grasping at too many straws. :oops:

I like the idea of a proving ground. But who organised it? I can see Artorias sbeing responsible but only before he became a darkwraith. After he falls I cannot see him doing it. And who put Alvina where she is? As you say she is devious, why is she protecting the grave?

Its good info but "we need to go deeper".

Exactly my thoughts, I'm going to be going over all dialogue and items related to the forest as I find the time. Along with a Proving Ground, maybe Alvina truly does know of the Covenant of Artorias and the Abysswalking. She is extremely quick to dismiss the idea of such things, as well with her group of people dedicated to protecting the grave, so many different possibilities. And that's always a question, is his body even there? What if instead of a grave, it's more so a memorial.

Alright, Oolacile, god damn do I hate that name. I'm calling it the Land of Oz from now on.

Enchanted Ember-"Ember required for weapon ascension.
This enchanted ember, a form of sorcery,
is a vestige of the lost land of Oolacile.

Ascends +5 magic wpn to enchanted weapon.
(enchanted weapon can be magic reinforced to +5)

The sorcerer's enchanted weapon that inflicts
magic damage and is boosted by intelligence"

Antiquated Set-"Special magic crown bestowed upon Dusk, Princess of Oolacile, upon her birth.
Its wearer is blessed by all manner of magic. This raises the power and effect of the wearer's magic, but damage suffered by magic attacks also rises.
Dress/Gloves/Skirt- Apparel from the ancient fallen land of Oolacile. Its ivory-colored silk features elaborate embroidery and is imbued with ancieny magic power.
One cannot expect any physical protection from this garment, as it was not meant to be worn in battle."

Land of Oz Catalyst-"Sorcery catalyst of lost land of Oolacile. Formed by enchanted whitebark branches. The whitebark boosts sorcery adjustment, but the sorceries of this lost land are gentle and not affected by intelligence."

Hidden Body-"Ancient sorcery of the lost land of Oolacile. Turns body nearly invisible.
Although perfect invisibility is unachievable due to the risk of dissipation, the caster need only stand still for a moment to blend in to environs with astounding camouflage."

Chameleon-"Ancient sorcery of the lost land of Oolacile. Transform into something inconspicuous.
A separate stealth spell from Hidden Body. A skilled stealth sorcerer must be aware of his or her surrounding and of which objects are prime candidates for imitation."

Hidden Weapon-"Ancient sorcery of the lost land of Oolacile. Turns right weapon invisible.
Not a simple augmentation, making it dependent on the skill of its caster. An example of the capacity of Ooalcile sorceries to control light."

Repair-"Ancient sorcery of the lost land of Oolacile. Repair equipped weapons and armor.
This sorcery was part of everyday life in Oolacile. Its effects resembles repair powder."

Cast Light-"Ancient sorcery of the lost land of Oolacile. Cast a bright light upon surroundings. This light-producing sorcery is elementary but nonetheless demonstrates the achievements in mysticism of Oolacile. Such magic has not been developed even in Vinheim."

Stone Knight Armor Set-"Moss-covered armor of the Stone Knight, defender of the Darkroot Garden.
The Stone Knight is a product of ancient magic, and although this armor is
also imbued with magic, it is incredibly heavy."

Stone Greatsword-"The Stone Knights who guard the Darkroot Garden wield this moss-covered greatsword."
"The same magic which created the Stone Knights is imbued in the sword. Unleash this power by wielding the sword with two hands."

Stone Greatshield-"Mossy round greatshield used by the guardian of the Darkroot garden, the Stone Knight."
"The Stone Knight is a creation of ancient magic, and this shield is imbued with the same power, but is also extremely heavy."

Grass Crest Shield-"Old medium metal shield of unknown origin. The grass crest is lightly imbued with magic, which slightly speeds stamina recovery."

The term Ancient Magic is only applied in these two instances that I can think of, Magic of the Land of Oz, and things within the Darkroot. As well the Stone Knight Sword Scales with faith, and literally everything having to do with this land is here. It is mentioned that all of the people of this land were destroyed long ago, which does give me reason to believe the Dark Root could be the remains, after all this is an ancient area with heavy magic inovlement. A good amount of the enemies appear to be animations or magically effected wild life, the Ents, Mushroom People, Stone Knights, there are even Golems here.

Also in regards to the Knights, think about some of the Armor sets found in the Dark Root. Knight, Elite Knight, Stone Knight. This place has some relation to Knights outside of Artorias, I have to know what it is. Unless, maybe they were looking for a replacement for him? A new fourth knight, a possibility. I'll have to think over some of these things more. Right now I'm just a bit distracted.

Oz was very famous for its manipulation of light. It would be fitting that when it fell it was replaced by someplace "dark".

Another interesting thing, though I am sure you thought of it tolvo, It always facinated me that the people of "Oolzzzz" were constantly defined as peaceful people, their magic doesn't scale off inteligence according to the catalyst, buuutt their weapons do... HM, that combined with all the stealth. repair weapon, hidden weapon, etc.

This just strikes me as strange. Peaceful community of sorcerors, their magic is supportive, but do you KNOW what they are carrying in their offhand? Not to mention if they are to blame for these magical esque creatures in the forest, Something about oo-zz.. I can't understand. They are like the people who smile at you and shake your hand invite you for tea but are brandishing an invisible knife behind their backs.

Sorry this isn't really as well thought out as I would like, but I'm on a time crunch to post so I just wanted to get the little quirk out of my head.

Lol.......Tolvo and the forest. I'm covered a few thoughts over in Emergence's thread but that one's dedicated to lore hunting and comparing to real world inspirations so the "meaning" of all that isn't discussed much. To summarize my thoughts from that essay of a thread:

The entire Forest is a "special" place in the game. There is hardly a sign of real life in the game. Except in Darkroot where it's thriving. That's gotta mean something. I did some grave lurking myself for research and Tolvo is absolutely correct. There are approximately two dozen graves and more swords than that by far. I also noted that the two (giant) greatswords leaning on the grave are not anywhere else in game. The same goes for some of the smaller swords. No other weapon is present except for swords. Additionally, where there be graves.........there be flowers. I will go confident in something for once (rather than tentative) and say this absolutely means that the graves aren't of pillagers or scoundrels, they are of honorable knights. Further significance, there aren't any graves (and only a flower or two) BEHIND the grave of Artorias. Two possibilities here.....Artorias' grave was either first or last. If he's first the graves are of knights looking to complete his quest and walk the abyss or his followers that fell after him. The lack of consistency with the graves though indicates it is unlikely that they were his knights. If Artorias was last it's symbolic that he was the last knight to fall or whatever happened to the world meant that the graveyard was lost. I theorized that Alvina and/or Sif and/or Gough and/or Ciaran or maybe some darkwraiths brought Artorias to be buried here after he died. I can buy the proving ground theory easily as there is a lot of protection for nothing. Well, nothing except FURTHER hardship. Because once you get through everything the only thing you gained is a ticket to be slapped around by Four Kings.

Tolvo, I haven't come across any evidence for Alvina disliking Sif, item descriptions actually call them friends (I think Cat Covenant ring). They might not like each other much (I can be swayed with evidence) but they definitely have a common goal.

Yukon, I'm not convinced that Artorias fell in the classic terms. I don't think there's any "good" path in the game and Artorias' quest changed, perhaps for better or worse, but I don't think he went bad. There's too much evidence in the forest of life and actual emotions that are absent in the rest of the game that suggest Artorias never stopped being a hero. There is tons of evidence that the rest of his contemporaries turned sour instead.

I see the reference to Artorias' "unbendable will of steel" as evidence that he was tricked into the covenant in the Abyss. From a psychological standpoint though, it makes more sense that the change wasn't a change at all. When everything around him was decaying and changing he adapted his ways to continue his original quest.

So.....that really is a brief summary of things I've found forest related, for more information visit your local library or Linking Lore thread. I did a little with the forest, the grave site and creatures and the thread started with Artorias stuff.

I believe after the third succesfulinvasion Alvina tell syou she dislikes Sif. After Artorias's death something must have occred between the two.
Do we know at what point Artorias died? Because that will be a big help deciding how he fell (I use fell for lack of a better term).

I cant seem to find a picture so Ill ask - How are the graves arranged? Are they neat and ordered, arranged in a certain shape indicating tthey were all added at once? Or are they in a haphazard fashion indicating they were added to over the years?

Also ho wdoes this grave interact with the theory the forest is Oz. Since Seath captured Dusk it can be assumed that happened after he went crazy. He only went crazy after Gwyn linked with the fire. As such Oz must have been around when Artorias was alive. So was he buried in Oz and why would he be?

Yes, I've always been a bit wary of them. I always assumed Dusk didn't really remember a whole lot of her people if they've been dead for so long, but I don't really know if she was conscious or not inside of the golem. As well another thing, if this was such a peaceful place why was it destroyed in the first place? Why are their Magic Stone Knights? I've always wondered if Seath had a hand in the end of Oz, but I can't say for sure. I also noticed something strange just a bit ago. In the Basement before the capra demon, past the four torch zombies near Grigs. There is a corpse with Twin Humanity, everyone knows that right? Except, his body is slightly blue and pale, as well he is in a prayer like position. Exactly like the dead blacksmith past the Moonlight Butterfly. In fact, he looks a lot like the pygmy from the opening Cinematic, I'm going to be looking around for more corpses with this form. So much lore to check up on! I need to do some more Shiva research as well.

Skare something of Interest, there is a broken greatsword there as well, I'm trying to find out what exactly it is. As well, the body holding the Hornet's Ring is a female, she is curled in a ball holding herself while resting against the back of his grave.

Hornet Ring-"One of the special rings granted to the four knights of Gwyn. The Hornet Ring
Belonged to the Lord's Blade Ciaran. By boosting critical attacks, its wearer can
annihilate foes, as Ciaran's dagger laid waste to Lord Gwyn's enemies."

Now I can't remember where it is mentioned, but isn't Ciaran female?

Also I confused Shiva with Sif for a moment when I was writing that up, oops on my part haha.

By the way, doesn't Shiva's accent strike you as a bit odd? Person of the East, and he speaks almost perfectly with a small lisp in regards to pronouncing S's. By the way, all dialogue relating to Alvina and Shiva.



By the way I just thought of something awesome, how great would it be if Shiva could invade, as a blue spirit if you aren't a hunter and are human in the forest?

The graves are littered about without much design. Quit posting as I'm typing.

Watching that she does seem very happy when you join. Also the way she describes it is as a very honourable organisation. They seem to hate traitors, yet this is the only covenant without a penalty for betraying, and it allows you to rejoin without any difficulting if you betray them.

Shiva's voice sounds familiar now that I hear it.

What about the magic ember? How is its presence explained?

EDIT: Tomorrow I'll be taking one of my toons to the forest to do some investigating of my own. I'll primairly be searching for hidden walls and stuff. Its a big dark place, with plenty of hiding spots.

The only dialogue I've seen or heard of Alvina's with distrust/dislike as the theme is regarding Shiva. I looked for video, text dumps and have chatted with her a lot and have not personally seen anything on Sif from Alvina (not saying it doesn't exist, if it does please linky link so I can peek since I love this area in the game too).

Graveyard shape is between ordered and haphazard. There is a walkway in the middle, bare from graves to the Grave of Artorias. I would imagine this means he was there first (walkway planned to Artorias rather than graves moved to accommodate Artorias'). They aren't quite in neat rows but it looks like maybe it was attempted to be orderly. There are several closer to the entry that I would call "stragglers." They're part of the main cemetery but on the fringe.

My theory on why he was buried where he was is due to my other theory that he was murdered by Ornstein and Smough (at the helm at least, Emergence has me pretty convinced Ciaran helped at least). The proving ground theory is sound and I'm willing to jump on Tolvo's bandwagon with that but it seems there's double duty. I don't think the security is for looters. I think it's meant to keep out defilers, possibly those who murdered Artorias. In addition to being secure, I always felt that this area is a big secret. I think those in their ivory towers in Anor Londo had little knowledge of the forest save Artorias. The rolly cats suggest Alvina is native to the woods and she was friends with Artorias. Alvina seems outside of the decay that befell Anor Londo and it's inhabitants and possibly at odds. If Alvina was actually opposed to the recovery of the ring she'd be made you killed her buddy Sif. She's not though. Alvina and Sif want Artorias' legacy to be continued, even if they have to sacrifice (well Sif anyway). Sif dies so her master's will can be fulfilled. Alvina seems to assist by building a suitable secret and proving ground area. So....that tangent aside, that suggests that, if Ornstein, Smough, Gwyndolin, Gwyn, Seath etc. knew about the forest, they would go there themselves and start a war to stop the chosen undead before he even arrived as they are opposed to you completing the game. Loooooong tangents aside.......if Artorias and Alvina were friends, I believe Artorias must have discovered the forest and perhaps considered it just as special as Alvina did. As Tolvo will tell you, she really likes those that help the forest.

Tolvo, forgot the Oolacile as Darkroot theory info I had for you. I know you've read the Emergence thread so this is a refresher.....

There's a painting of Sen's forest in one of the little bedrooms in Anor Londo. I questioned if it was Sen's because it was on a cliff. Then I realized that Sen's IS on a cliff but the tree make it look like it's not. The painting confused me because there's no tree in it. So the forest was not or will not always be a forest. In game stuff shows that there's a time with either really small trees or no trees. Perhaps the slaughter of the gentle magic loving people of Oolacile gives the forest it's life.

Lastly.....NEW INFORMATION instead of rehashing my other stuff. The glowing flowers might be significant. In much lore, flowers grow over the graves of special persons (like the Artorias cemetery). Ooolacile magic loves to monkey with.....light. Lighted flowers may be the last legacy of the people of Oolacile.

Bit of an out there theory but - Could Artorias been from oz? When the city was destroyed by a god/the gods he turned to the dark for revenge? he chose to be buried in the last place the magic of his people showed?

Yeah, one of the giant swords (to the right I think) is broken near the tip. There is one on each side of the grave. I think Sif beat the guy who held the one on the left and positively SCHOOLED the guy who had his sword broken. Emergence did research and concluded Ciaran was female. I tend to believe that corpse is not Ciaran since Ornstein and Smough are also big like Artorias but Gwyndolin is a runt in his family so Ciaran could have been little and sneaky (we have some ideas on the ring being where it is too).

I love Shiva's accent, kinda makes me feel like Sean Connery or someone supposed to be older/wiser (but Shiva is a tad devious). "Of the East" as his official title makes it kinda sound like he doesn't want people to know precisely where he came from. In my case, someone from Syracuse could say they're "Of the East" so who know where he's really from.

As I said I was just mixing up dialogue in regards to Shiva about Sif.

A murder I can see happening, and maybe that is why his legacy is so strong. He could be seen as a martyr for a hidden cause. As well if indeed there was worry about others not just defilying the grave, but taking the ring and using it for ill that would make the forest hunters a perfect force. Think about this, these are people who live in the darkness, know the land, can set traps, think Vietnam.

Those mushrooms that glowed actually were kind of messing with me too! As well with some of my older findings, if I remember correctly there are two messages in the forest from the Knight of Astora.

"Follow the glowing Mushrooms."

"Are the trees moving?"

So he made a journey through here as well, possibly with the proving grounds idea.

If Artorias was from Oz? Wait a second...The Stone Knights use a Faith like Magic, Artorias has some Faith based off of his sword. As well they were a people of magic, that used int but didn't need a lot of it. His sword has a decent 20 int, as well the placement of the area, the magic damage type, my god my brain is about to explode! I'm so glad I made this thread.

Emergence loves his Artorias is a Southpaw theory and the revised art kinda looks like they want us to know that. The stone knights are the only other lefties I know of in the game.

They also have greatswords as well, a quality we know was that of Artorias. The greatshield may also be a revise towards how Artorias has a shield as well, which is made from the soul of sif and a shield.

Even more so is the divine quality. The design of the armor shows that of similar taste as the Way of White, with a halo being seen on the helm (or a sun aura. Not really sure which one yet. It is either or, thou). As well, their sword is also has the quality of a miracle, which is the tranquil walk of peace. As their is no origin known for this miracle, it could be that the miracle was that of whoever designed the stone knights, or maybe a third party that was with the designer.

As the blacksmith holds a divine ember, and it is close to the forest of Artorias, it could be that the Stone Knights are that of similar design as that of the Sun Gods replication, and that their divine quality and their weapon usage is that derived from the abysswalker. Of course it could be that the miracle was that of the knight, or another god or follower of the sun (as the miracles derive from the power of gods, and not from the being itself (except faith), being that of stories).

The forest is filled with magic, and I doubt that the knights were created by Seath, even though a minion, the butterfly, lives in the broken and abandoned church that holds the divine ember. Just food for thought.

I was going to suggest that the stone giants could be modelled after Artorias but their shield and weapon design is too different. I was thinking the broken halo thing around their helm could signify Artorias's sacrifice to save oz so the city's defenders were built in his I also compared the crest to their shields and there are no real similarities.
Why do you think the crest can do more harm than good? The bandits are already inside the door so that doesnt mean anything. What use could it do that would make it bad for the "uninitiated"?

Another god being in the mix is a possibility, as I said there is an old Great Lord Greatsword resting against Artorias' grave, so I wouldn't rule that one out. In fact it was mentioned in that art book that Andre was supposed to originally be a descendant of Gwyn, so technically a god like being. He could have had other relatives, meaning the other Blacksmiths who look just like him, but then this comes into the area of removed content and what was really intended from the start. Another thing is that the Blue Golems while in Seath's archives, I don't know if they are actually his creations. If you check with the titanite descriptions they mention that these Slabs were creations of the Blacksmith Deity, as well that the titanite Demons rose from them upon his passing. Could it not be the same with these Blue titanite Golems? I've always wondered why Andre has that crest, availability? Why would it be availability if the idea is to keep others out? I almost wonder if he actually doesn't know what it is, because you don't have to prove yourself to get it. You don't have to do a quest for it, he sells it like a scavenger. If he was trying to keep people away from the forest hunters and dangers wouldn't he just keep it to himself? I'm on a bit of a crunch for time so I have to leave my post short, but I'll be back later!

I'm also curious about the caved in entrance, across the new londo greatbridge in the valley of drakes. Once there were another underground city there, with a great gate just like New Londo. This city would have been located directly beneath the darkroot garden/basin of today, which might have caved in together with the city beneath.

I always found the New Londo name strange, it hints towards it being made after Anor Lono, but the buildings in New Londo looks way older. Maybe there was once an even older city just named Londo? Could these cities be dark underground strongholds from the time the dragons still roamed? That would give the prologue a different meaning as well.

Well I've always wondered in regards to the army Gwyn fought the Dragons with, where did they all come from? Did they just suddenly come into existence and overthrow the dragons, or was there a large society outside of their rule waiting for a chance to strike? The deeper you go, the more you find. This can be said of any search really. One thing I've always been interested about is why that Hydra is there, is there a reason for it? And why is a valley of drakes right below the garden? As well it is awfully close to New Londo, and when you think about it parts of it even have similar designs to New Londo itself. Man, I need to get back into the forest and look around some more.

The valley of drakes has always confused me. Its only purpose appears to be a shortcut. Every other area has a purpose (even ash lake and the great hollow) but the valley has nothing.

Anor londo was the city of the gods and it was made before new londo. new londo is the city of man built under the eyes of the gods. New londo looks older due to it being flooded and anor londo being kept alive by rebuilding and magic. If you notice you cannot see the bottom of anor londo. The city simply built upwards abandoning the lower levels. Therefore the visible parts of anor londo may be younger than new londo, but anor londo as a city came first.

In the prologue you see the humans rising from the dark and going to the fire. There would have been a large timegap between the first fire's lighting and the dragon war. In this time all the structures you see (and presumably cannot see under the "sand") were built. It likely was a thriving city, the first free city. Here Gwyn would have raised his army in secret. The city likely survived due to its depth and how it was hidden by the archtrees.

I dont think the crystal golems could have risen from the slabs. Well whatever they were before they were crystallized probably did rise from the slabs but then Seath used the crystal ember to turn them into what they are. Rising from the slabs before they were changed into crystal by magic explains why they drop the blue chunks.

Is Alvina real or an illusion like Gwynvere? Because if I remember correctly when you attack her, she says something and just fades away, like in Anor Londo. I was really disappointed when I tried to kill her but couldn't