PvP Honor - An Intelligent Discussion

Fact of the matter is that until the lag issues are resolved pvp is broken, I sometimes enjoy the pvp in this game but when I get hit with a spell when on my screen it was nowhere near me or a lag pivot back stab my frustration goes through the roof.

The way I look at it is that if I invade you, I can't fault you for doing w/e it takes to beat me and i expect you to; I expect you to summon more people, I expect you to heal and though I despise WoG or force if its in your playbook and you catch me with it, bravo.

As the invader its my job to defeat you in spite of all your advantages, I also invade as a Dark Wrath, knowing they're higher level makes it more interesting.

On a side note I was invaded today on my level 35 making my way through DA by a Darkmoon level 95 showed up wielding Grant and nailed me with a BS after I took half his/her health, he was in front of me and then was behind me, it appeared like lag to me but I was the host so idk. he quit out the second time he invaded me knowing I was level 35 and only interested in finishing the area, I thank him for that.. my point on the side note is that I don't feel the darkmooners are the good guys, it seems to me like its an easy covenant to grief while hiding under a guise of righteousness, the person in my example is a rare breed and all the other darkmooners I've ran into have been just another form of griefer.

i have been invaded and see those teleporting backstabs and i also got hit by invisible spells. your right lag is always an issue. i just dont like the taunting when your 2 on 1. but thats the internet for you i guess.

The taunting drives me up the wall, if the fight was good, they will taunt, if they won by freak accident they will taunt, 2v1 they taunt, if they creamed me that is the only acceptable time to taunt and then I will laugh because I deserved it.

Also don't bow when it wasn't 1v1... its like spiting in my face,

It depends on the situation. If I invade and see 2 or 3 players I don't bow. If I'm invading as a forest hunter no bowing because your trepassing and most of those players have friends helping them, at least that is what I've encountered. If I invade and only see a host at a safe distance then I'll bow.

I actually like fair fights... I bow (unless the invader is someone I've already met and who BS'd me while bowing), and don't "lag stab".. only backstab people very seldom. When I'm invading a guy who's already fighting another invader, i usually step back and wait for the fight to finish, cause 2 vs 1 just isn't fun (unless the guy is a very high level "unbeatable" guy I've met before).
Also, when getting invaded multiple times by some guy who's level is far below mine, I usually add bonuses (give the guy some humanity or titanite chunk or whatever, just before the fight... ) or even suicide once in a while to give the guy some well deserved souls...

I don't like multiple-BackStabbers or the Walk Of Peace/Wrath Of God combination.. but again.. that's part of the game, and each of those can be dodged if you adapt to it (keeping safe distances, and Vow of Silence) so, usually, I only get killed once.. then I adapt to my opponent.

If you truly want to know about honour in PvP this is the place to look:

http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/message/view/home/47275926

I dont think you should ever expect an "honourable" fight unless its via red soap. If an invasion turns out to be a good fair fight, savour it. As an invader i'll expect the host to do whatever it takes to beat me, and vice versa if im the host.

The only thing i dont agree with is people farming invaders in 2v1 3v1 scenarios, but i'll refuse to be angered by it, i just black crystal as to not give them the satisfaction

I always try to give the option to bow by giving myself a lot of distance and dropping my shield/guard for a few seconds. Usually my opponent will bow, or if there's enough distance, I'll bow, I don't care if they're honorable or not, I try to be anyway

Having said that, I've had some very interesting and fun PvP's where bowing wasn't even in the picture. Last night I invadad many times in PWoA with a level40 Faith build. One run, there was an item on the path going up to the bonfire which stupid me of course says 'hmm, what could this be?' as I check it -> yep BS from opponent with a Great Club. Hell, I thought that was great! Kudos to her (anna something). I actually invaded her again 2 minutes later, of course not falling for that one, and can't find her. As I reach a tight spot, I see her hidden body emerge into the firestorm animation and Bam! dead again, but again, awesome! loved it! It's about using the strengths of each unique character and winning in the end. A straight up sword fight seems like the old west and almost demands the bow, but sniping me from a scaffold up high with a great lightning spear? cool! better not let me catch you though

Most of the time i bow, but there are exception to the rule:
1. In the Forest i usually just charge since Forest pvp = wankers
2. If the guy is Giants armor + random mask, i don't fully trust anyone with that setup
3. If i invade & the host is waiting with 2x Sunbros

I like a fair fight but if you play dirty & i survive...

Most of the time i bow, but there are exception to the rule:
1. In the Forest i usually just charge since Forest pvp = wankers
2. If the guy is Giants armor + random mask, i don't fully trust anyone with that setup
3. If i invade & the host is waiting with 2x Sunbros

This is exacly what I do, nothing more, nothing less than that.

I bow before fights, don't go for backstabs as a rule (will take the chance to if your wide open) and I won't run behind mobs when invading. I think I'm pretty honorable by most standards.

I don't agree with people who say healing is cheap, if you can't keep the pressure on that is your fault. Should not be giving an opponent a chance to breath in the first place. In the kilin or duals perhaps its expected, but if I'm invading I'm healing.

I'd agree with you that in random invasions, healing is fine. The host will, so you will no prob.

You do sound fairly 'honourable' but do you just not expect your opponent to be going for backstabs while you lay off them?

I don't think the game was meant to have 'fairness' any more than every tactic should have a few different counters. Other than that I think the developers intended (like in DeS) to have a very unique online system where you can be a black phantom enemy, which should have limitations based on what 'normal' black phantoms would do. I don't think a regular invasion should be really any different than when Kirk or Mildred invades.

With that being said, I think there is an unspoken honor system for people looking to be invaded. If that unspoken honor system is broken... I think it goes back to the above where the invader is supposed to be at a disadvantage and both parties should do what they need to do to win.

If you look on page four, there is a link to the honour you refer to

Godless Servant wrote:Fact of the matter is that until the lag issues are resolved pvp is broken, I sometimes enjoy the pvp in this game but when I get hit with a spell when on my screen it was nowhere near me or a lag pivot back stab my frustration goes through the roof.

This isn't true at all, (PvP being broken) and is more of a symptom of personal issues as well as not being able to adapt and overcome. If you're lagging that bad, it's your connection, and if you can't avoid pivot back stabs, you should reconsider your strategy. Not trying to be offensive, just observation.

Here's another question/concern:

Do you feel like unplugging your internet/system mid invasion, whether you want to be invaded or not, is ever justified?

I've quit mid invasion only one time. A guy invaded me and absolutely refused to fight me. Kept running away behind mobs as soon as I'd get close. He tried spamming WoG, but ran out after 6 immediate casts and then stopped being offensive unless I tried fighting the mobs he was hiding behind. After 10 min of this I got bored and force quit.

theAnimus wrote:

Godless Servant wrote:Fact of the matter is that until the lag issues are resolved pvp is broken, I sometimes enjoy the pvp in this game but when I get hit with a spell when on my screen it was nowhere near me or a lag pivot back stab my frustration goes through the roof.

This isn't true at all, (PvP being broken) and is more of a symptom of personal issues as well as not being able to adapt and overcome. If you're lagging that bad, it's your connection, and if you can't avoid pivot back stabs, you should reconsider your strategy. Not trying to be offensive, just observation.

Here's another question/concern:

Do you feel like unplugging your internet/system mid invasion, whether you want to be invaded or not, is ever justified?

actually if he is the one getting lag stabbed the opponent is the one lagging. thats pretty clear. as it doesnt even look dodgy on the screen of the guy thats lagging, in this game lag is a bit wierd, it means the person lagging will always be a second ahead of you, meaning its near impossible to dodge the lagstab unless you do nothing but back peddle / roll backwards.

id learned to deal with lag, mainly just try to ignore it, as it will always be there. just please dont use the typical troll respose "oh just get better" or "its your connection".

i can honestly say ill never get hit by a backstab unless they are lagging. im being completely serious. if i happen to find a fight with zero lag, and the opponent happens to be only going for backstabs, he will not get one, being able to poke out of range with a spear and then roll away, never letting them get anywhere near my back. without lag, i can swing the spear like 4-5 times and still roll away, them still going for my back but failing, with lag however, ONE poke, one measly poke, at the maximum range for a spear, and i get lag stabbed, so in other words, if they lag, and you swing your weapon, ever, your getting lag stabbed. simple as that.

one guy yesterday even admitted to me he actually knew how bad he lagged, and guess what? he was using hornet ring. surprise surprise.

if it wasn't such a blatant attempt at starting an argument i wouldn't of even replied.

k0rruptid wrote:

theAnimus wrote:

Godless Servant wrote:Fact of the matter is that until the lag issues are resolved pvp is broken, I sometimes enjoy the pvp in this game but when I get hit with a spell when on my screen it was nowhere near me or a lag pivot back stab my frustration goes through the roof.

This isn't true at all, (PvP being broken) and is more of a symptom of personal issues as well as not being able to adapt and overcome. If you're lagging that bad, it's your connection, and if you can't avoid pivot back stabs, you should reconsider your strategy. Not trying to be offensive, just observation.

Here's another question/concern:

Do you feel like unplugging your internet/system mid invasion, whether you want to be invaded or not, is ever justified?

actually if he is the one getting lag stabbed the opponent is the one lagging. thats pretty clear. as it doesnt even look dodgy on the screen of the guy thats lagging, in this game lag is a bit wierd, it means the person lagging will always be a second ahead of you, meaning its near impossible to dodge the lagstab unless you do nothing but back peddle / roll backwards.

id learned to deal with lag, mainly just try to ignore it, as it will always be there. just please dont use the typical troll respose "oh just get better" or "its your connection".

i can honestly say ill never get hit by a backstab unless they are lagging. im being completely serious. if i happen to find a fight with zero lag, and the opponent happens to be only going for backstabs, he will not get one, being able to poke out of range with a spear and then roll away, never letting them get anywhere near my back. without lag, i can swing the spear like 4-5 times and still roll away, them still going for my back but failing, with lag however, ONE poke, one measly poke, at the maximum range for a spear, and i get lag stabbed, so in other words, if they lag, and you swing your weapon, ever, your getting lag stabbed. simple as that.

one guy yesterday even admitted to me he actually knew how bad he lagged, and guess what? he was using hornet ring. surprise surprise.

if it wasn't such a blatant attempt at starting an argument i wouldn't of even replied.

Sorry, but this just isn't true. Take Japanese players for instance, they have MUCH better connection speeds than us, yet every time I (and many others) get connected to them there is significant lag, not due to their connection speed, but because of ours mixed w/ the physical distance.

There's also no such thing as 'zero lag'.

I always bow from farther away, but recently I started to get teamed quite often.. I will always bow, give them time to buff up what they want to unless they're running at me with 2 people behind them. Then I run for it and ninja my way through the battles.

I normally save my buff for the host, when I bow in 1 vs 2/3, two things can happen:

The host bows and sit back while the phatom fight me, if I defeat him, I bow to host again and we begin fight (honorable)

The host does not bows, buff his weapon while phantom try to backstab me (douche)

My opinion

"zero lag" or as close as humanly possible, is pretty easy to spot, you just dont get lag stabbed. and can swing your weapon without instantly getting back stabbed.

aceluby wrote:

k0rruptid wrote:

theAnimus wrote:

Godless Servant wrote:Fact of the matter is that until the lag issues are resolved pvp is broken, I sometimes enjoy the pvp in this game but when I get hit with a spell when on my screen it was nowhere near me or a lag pivot back stab my frustration goes through the roof.

This isn't true at all, (PvP being broken) and is more of a symptom of personal issues as well as not being able to adapt and overcome. If you're lagging that bad, it's your connection, and if you can't avoid pivot back stabs, you should reconsider your strategy. Not trying to be offensive, just observation.

Here's another question/concern:

Do you feel like unplugging your internet/system mid invasion, whether you want to be invaded or not, is ever justified?

actually if he is the one getting lag stabbed the opponent is the one lagging. thats pretty clear. as it doesnt even look dodgy on the screen of the guy thats lagging, in this game lag is a bit wierd, it means the person lagging will always be a second ahead of you, meaning its near impossible to dodge the lagstab unless you do nothing but back peddle / roll backwards.

id learned to deal with lag, mainly just try to ignore it, as it will always be there. just please dont use the typical troll respose "oh just get better" or "its your connection".

i can honestly say ill never get hit by a backstab unless they are lagging. im being completely serious. if i happen to find a fight with zero lag, and the opponent happens to be only going for backstabs, he will not get one, being able to poke out of range with a spear and then roll away, never letting them get anywhere near my back. without lag, i can swing the spear like 4-5 times and still roll away, them still going for my back but failing, with lag however, ONE poke, one measly poke, at the maximum range for a spear, and i get lag stabbed, so in other words, if they lag, and you swing your weapon, ever, your getting lag stabbed. simple as that.

one guy yesterday even admitted to me he actually knew how bad he lagged, and guess what? he was using hornet ring. surprise surprise.

if it wasn't such a blatant attempt at starting an argument i wouldn't of even replied.

Sorry, but this just isn't true. Take Japanese players for instance, they have MUCH better connection speeds than us, yet every time I (and many others) get connected to them there is significant lag, not due to their connection speed, but because of ours mixed w/ the physical distance.

There's also no such thing as 'zero lag'.

I'm gonna quote a dumb amount of text for no reason!

and simply say that this is so subjective that there's no point disagreeing really.. some people want to play fairer than others and will just stay that way.

@ace, how do you explain someone who knows how bad they lag and use it to their advantage? not to mention equipping the hornet ring simply for that reason alone.

k0rruptid wrote:id learned to deal with lag, mainly just try to ignore it, as it will always be there. just please dont use the typical troll respose "oh just get better" or "its your connection".

You managed to call my response a troll, and use the same response yourself in the same sentence? My response was directed at someone claiming the game was broken, when in fact, it is not. Connection issues are relevant in any online game, especially one designed mostly around 1v1.

Additionally, this thread is intended as a conduit to intelligently discuss honor as it relates to PVP. There's an obvious split as to what people believe, and I'm sure arguments will arise, but the holier than thou attitude you're presenting isn't welcomed and you can take it elsewhere.

since when did me quoting what someone said mean that i said it? where is this holier than thou attitude you speak of? the part you quoted me on, i was simply quoting what someone else said.

"get better" or "get a better connection" is the typical troll response.