The Search for Lore

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    Post by Tolvo on Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:23 pm

    I'm going to be using binoculars to look closely at a lot of things, and I just have a feeling I'm going to turn and suddenly have to close my eyes for a few minutes. Man do I hate those effects. 😢

    Hopefully the Legs won't be much of an issue though, 999 of every projectile!
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    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:55 am

    First of all I would like to thank Acidic_Cook for all the research he has done. Its great to know more about such a great game's lore.

    Second, sorry if this has already been suggested/disroved, havent had time to read this entire thread, what if the witch of Izalith was the first firekeeper? When the Pygmy/God of War extinguished the first flame she attempted to create another flame to link to but lost control. This then forced Gwyn to link with the first flame to prevent chaos triumphing. Thus the God of War caused his mother's "death" and forced Gwyn into the position of firekeeper. For this he was stripped of godhood.
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    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:09 pm

    Hey Acidic I dont know if you know this but when I was fighting Bed of Chaos you fight it in a dome-like arena. This dome can be seen from the entrance to demon ruins, with roots of (the Great Hollow?) all over. Its interesting too the fact that the bed of chaos is in some kind of giant throne. When you see the intro the Witch of Izalith is much larger than her daughters of chaos. Another fact is that the daughter of chaos that you fight before bed of chaos is NOT hollow, when I killed her I saw her feet as white as snow. Hope this helps in your research.


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    Post by Gol on Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:24 pm

    About Artorias, I got a similar "theory" but it is different on some points and I think you'll find it interesting.
    I'm too lazy to write it at the moment but maybe tomorrow.
    Don't hesitate to PM me if I forgot.
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    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:12 pm

    Acidic sorry for posting so much on you thread but I found another thing. The blacksmith in the Catacombs seeks an ember from New Londo, the Large Flame Ember.
    Large flame ember used in ancient rites. Handled only by blacksmiths knowledgeable in ancient methods.
    I remember you say that occultists were from New Londo. Thats another fact that supports your theory about the occultists using the power of the flame and dark.


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    Post by Artorias on Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:39 pm

    Acidic i have a question, About the ten vessels behind the lorvessel and the stairs on each side leading to them. There are nine small ones and a big one if you think about it there are nine covenants but what about the big one?

    Also there is a door in front of theses vessels something like the door that leads to the kiln


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    Post by ChizFreak on Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:45 pm

    Artorias wrote:Acidic i have a question, About the ten vessels behind the lorvessel and the stairs on each side leading to them. There are nine small ones and a big one if you think about it there are nine covenants but what about the big one?

    Also there is a door in front of theses vessels something like the door that leads to the kiln

    We have been watching this for a long time, also a new user, billy_bayonet, says that with a pyromancer on NG++ he saw 1 of the brazers lit. We are asking him for a picture but he didn't answer yet, so.....


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    Post by Artorias on Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:50 pm

    ChizFreak wrote:
    Artorias wrote:Acidic i have a question, About the ten vessels behind the lorvessel and the stairs on each side leading to them. There are nine small ones and a big one if you think about it there are nine covenants but what about the big one?

    Also there is a door in front of theses vessels something like the door that leads to the kiln

    We have been watching this for a long time, also a new user, billy_bayonet, says that with a pyromancer on NG++ he saw 1 of the brazers lit. We are asking him for a picture but he didn't answer yet, so.....

    Sorry if im late lol
    id also like to mention you can also only make 10 characters so maybe you have a chose a specific class for each one
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    Post by ChizFreak on Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:52 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:Yes, I have seen them... Over and over.

    Well, their are also 3 flame lords, and three statues of the Firekeeper that are the same thing. The numbers and locations are no oversight of the FROM developers. Of course their is 10, with one being similar to the Lord Vessel. Their are 10 classes, many gifts, races, hairs, and other features of the player as well as covenant. Their are also 10 embers and 9 consumeable souls, including Gwyns, if I remember so.

    Those 10, as little is known, is not my top priority. Perhaps when other info comes my concerns of the 9 cups and the second Vessel will be my concern... But my plate needs clearing first before I do.

    Oh hey, listen, just wanted to tell you that me and Wyrmhero cleared up (completely in any way possible, in any dimension) all of Painted World of Ariamis. So I can tell you that there no secrets more than the ones we already know there.

    Only 2 things remain a mystery: Why doesn't the hollow with the pyromancy attack you on sight; and what's those 2 buildings at the beginning with a tiny bridge across them.


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    Post by ChizFreak on Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:53 pm

    Artorias wrote:
    ChizFreak wrote:
    Artorias wrote:Acidic i have a question, About the ten vessels behind the lorvessel and the stairs on each side leading to them. There are nine small ones and a big one if you think about it there are nine covenants but what about the big one?

    Also there is a door in front of theses vessels something like the door that leads to the kiln

    We have been watching this for a long time, also a new user, billy_bayonet, says that with a pyromancer on NG++ he saw 1 of the brazers lit. We are asking him for a picture but he didn't answer yet, so.....

    Sorry if im late lol
    id also like to mention you can also only make 10 characters so maybe you have a chose a specific class for each one

    I have created more than 40 characters and played for more than 1300 hours and I never saw them lit.


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    Post by Artorias on Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:56 pm

    No i mean a class for each slot with a specific starting gift, covenant and ending


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    Post by WyrmHero on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:03 pm

    Thats what sunbro is trying to do checkout his thread here on the Archives The Great Search. Yeah we hit almost every suspicious wall possible and killed every monster. Chiz if you didnt killed Priscilla try to go back I think shes super suspicious.

    Edit: Also Acid I came to the conclusion that the cages on the Painted World were used to transport the occultists from New Londo. The painted world is another prison like the Asylum, Peculiar Dolls location. Coincidence?


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    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:43 am

    Acidic_Cook wrote:I understand what you are trying to implement, my friend, but sadly that is not the case, probably. For one, the Bed of Chaos' soul is a normal soul, although a strong one that rivals all the other lord souls as being superior. The Witch of Izalith is also a Flame Lord, in which a Firekeeper is made out of Humanity. Her soul, the Witch of Izalith, is that of a soul. A powerful soul, but a soul nonetheless, and not a dark soul, which is humanity. It can be said that, with it, the Witch of Izalith is probably not the firekeeper that once lit the first flame, as the witch would probably not have a separate line of children that were not connected to the Gods of Sun, but more so part of it. If the God of War was the offspring as such Witch of Izalith, then it would be hard to say that he would be declared as a God, as he would be known as a Fire Mage, or later on in time a Pyromancer, due to the death of Fire Magic.

    It is a good idea, but their is little facts of the story, nor any implement to such ideas, other than factors such as her using the flames and the ragged robes (which are not the same as the statues), as well as being a female and a Flame lord. Nonetheless, it is possible, but highly unlikely.

    I see your point. I suppose the fact she found her soul within the first flame also prevents her from being the first firekeeper as presumably the firekeeper would have existed before the humans found the flame. So could the first firekeeper be a non human? Perhaps it was one of the everlastingl dragons or another Ancient.

    Have you discovered what actually caused the first flame yet? What is just some freak occurence or did the thpought of rebellion become so powerful in one person it caused the flame thus creating a firekeeper?
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    Post by WyrmHero on Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:07 pm

    Gwyndolin and Velka must have a connection. His catalyst contrasts with her talisman. The catalyst scales with faith, and the talisman scales with intelligence. Velka oversees the guilty and gives them the choice to absolve their sins. If not, Gwyndolin has the Blades of the Darkmoon to punish them. If Velka is the mother of Priscilla, then Gwyndolin must be her father. His legs are snakes!
    The occultists use the power of the flame as trying to copy what Nito does with his Lord Soul. The Large Flame Ember is from New Londo as the occultist used it in their rite along with the Dark Ember. As the Darkwraiths attack New Londo, the occultists escape leaving behind the Flame Ember. Kirk then hides the Flame Ember in some place that contains fire (Demon Ruins). He is trying to stop you from getting there. As you defeat him he takes one final battle before bed of chaos and uses the Daughter of Chaos as an ally to stop you.


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    Post by Serious_Much on Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:55 pm

    OI COOK!!

    Take a break you muppet and enjoy the game for once, you don't have to work full time on this you know silly


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    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:11 pm

    I just remembered something about Reah. At one point when you talk to Lautrec he offers to give you some intelligence in return for souls. Me thinking he meant the stat intellgience I happily paid. instead he gave me information about Petrus and Reah. He spoke about how Reah and petrus were soon to travel to the catacombs on a great quest. He mentioned that Reah was so brimming with humanity (cant remember the exact wording). If by brimming with humanity he meant her soul was made of humanity this would make her like a firekeeper. Would it be possible that Reah is descended from the first firekepper and whoever sent her on the quest believes she become a new firekeeper by using the rite of kindling? And i dont mean a firekeeper like gwyn is I mean a firekeeper like the first firekeeper was.
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    Post by WyrmHero on Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:30 pm

    So Gwyndolin is Velkas best friend LOL. Then Priscillas father must be Seath. If he was franted dukedom, in the real world heirarchy Princesses marry Dukes sometimes. He and Gwynevere must had something. But, how experimenting with maiden would yield results of scales of immortality? If Gwyndolin is a succesful experiment, what new abilities did he gained? The transformed maiden look more ike squids than snakes. But there are serpent men guarding the cells...

    Edit: Disregard what I said about the Squids limbs, they look like a part of a snake indeed.


    Last edited by WyrmHero on Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:31 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Post by Tolvo on Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:35 pm

    One thing I've always wondered about is what if Velka is like Gwynevere, and illusion created by Gwyndolin, I wouldn't entirely put it past him. Having another sect similar to his doing his bidding, though I can't think of a lick of evidence to support this, just an idea.
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    Post by pylorih on Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:21 am

    Bandit lvl 123 went to chaos rank 3 and finished up bed of chaos just a bit ago. None of the braziers in the back where the steps drop off have turned on.
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    Post by DoughGuy on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:03 am

    Firstly sorry for all the posts but as I read I keep seeing new things I want to add. Secondly sorry if anything I post has already been answered. I am posting as I read through the thread.

    @Acidic_Cook About your idea the everlasting dragons were once humans. Seath's soul is a lord sould. If we look at lord souls in that they enhanced a certain part of each person this adds credibility to your theory. Gwyn's lightning sorceries were his enancement, the witch had her fire sorceries enhanced and Nito was granted ht epower of necromancy/ the ability to grant necromancy to followers of his who had sufficient faith. Seath, as a human, got the lord soul of pure sorcery greatly enhancing his magic powers. Since in many contexts powrful sorcery is associated with dragons it makes sense for a being of extremeyl powerful sorcery to transform into a dragon. So Seath gets the soul, his power grows and he shapes himself into that of a dragon believng he will be immortal because of it.

    Otherwise why would his soul be a lord soul and requiredfor the lordvessel? It would imply that every everlasting dragon had a lord soul. that may have been true but I think its unlikely.

    Also in the prologue it mentions that "even now there are only embers". Could these embers mentioned be the embers you find in game? perhaps once these embers were flames, created from the first flame and are linked to its power. As the first flame fades so does the power of these embers.

    Finally in reference to the location of the peculiar doll. It is unknown how long ago Tarkus died . If he did die just after leaving the painted world, and if him leaving the painted world occurred shortly before you were freed from the asylum, then perhaps his last surviving knight took the doll from him and tried to hide it from the world. he returned to the asylum where the undead are "locked away to await the end of the world". Here, surely the knight thinks, no one will find it, no one will return to the crossbreeds world. Perhaps tarkus found something in the painted world and ordered his knight to hide the doll so no one else would ever find it.


    Last edited by DoughGuy on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:16 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Post by Serious_Much on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:12 am

    Dough Guy, I believe you are wrong in your analysis of Seath. While he is Scaleless which can lead to speculation over whether he is a 'true' dragon and some have even suggested else where that he could even be the pygmy, he is simply shown to be a Dragon just by watching the initial cutscene before the game begins.

    However, he is simply a scaleless dragon. The lord soul he possesses is a bequeathed shard of Gwyn's own lord soul, given to him (and Four kings) when Gwyn went to link the fire and postpone the age of man. While it is possible the soul enhanced his power, it did not let him turn to the form of a dragon, as during the war on the Dragons when Gwyn still possessed his Lord Soul, Seath was a dragon then too.

    Sorry to play devil's advocate here (stealing a classic emergence line but hey silly) Humanity as we know it in the game are descended from the pygmy. Then why or how would it be sensible to assume that the everlasting dragons are actually human? Especially when the covenant simply lets you take on a hybrid, not full dragon form that is not covered in scales.


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    Post by DoughGuy on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:19 am

    Serious_Much wrote:Dough Guy, I believe you are wrong in your analysis of Seath. While he is Scaleless which can lead to speculation over whether he is a 'true' dragon and some have even suggested else where that he could even be the pygmy, he is simply shown to be a Dragon just by watching the initial cutscene before the game begins.

    However, he is simply a scaleless dragon. The lord soul he possesses is a bequeathed shard of Gwyn's own lord soul, given to him (and Four kings) when Gwyn went to link the fire and postpone the age of man. While it is possible the soul enhanced his power, it did not let him turn to the form of a dragon, as during the war on the Dragons when Gwyn still possessed his Lord Soul, Seath was a dragon then too.

    Sorry to play devil's advocate here (stealing a classic emergence line but hey silly) Humanity as we know it in the game are descended from the pygmy. Then why or how would it be sensible to assume that the everlasting dragons are actually human? Especially when the covenant simply lets you take on a hybrid, not full dragon form that is not covered in scales.


    Ah, thank you for pointing that out. I forgot Gwyn gave him part of a lord soul which is what you need. That makes sense now. As I said Im poasting as I read through the thread and just putting my own theories on what Acidic_Cook has written earlier.
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    Post by Serious_Much on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:20 am

    hehe well I still wanna know about the dragons from humanity thing, though i suppose i'm being slightly lazy by not searching for it myself silly


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    Post by WyrmHero on Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:58 pm

    pylorih wrote:Bandit lvl 123 went to chaos rank 3 and finished up bed of chaos just a bit ago. None of the braziers in the back where the steps drop off have turned on.

    The thread for this research is The great search. You need to complete the game and link the fire. Then in NG+ retrieve the lordvessel again and let Frampt or Kaathe take you to Firelink Shrine. Check is the brazier is lit. Dont change covenants. Post your findings there.


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    Post by Serious_Much on Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:51 pm

    So pretty much the Dragon covenant ranking up, the torso stone and head stones are simply weaker versions of this ritual to you? They lack the sorcery and fire to truly develop and stay stuck in an interim and relatively weak form to Seath and the everlasting dragon?

    I see, that could make sense, though it's unfortunate that everything we speculate about the lore we cannot concrete, though I suppose that shows true how cleverly FROM created the world of Dark Souls


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