C.S.I. Undead Parish (Rhea and Pendant) [SPOILERS Mentioned]

I posted but moved this from glynphblades secrets thread because that thread is so long. Read if you like to know some tests I've been going through with pendant, and I need some feed back surrounding Forest area and covenant.

Crime Sceene Investigation

OK , here's to flogging a dead horse.

Being sick and indoors for about a week, I got into this lore and pendant stuff, which I'm not really happy about since you go nuts testing dead ends and trying to put things together all the time, but I have a couple of things to point out and i'm posting this maybe someone gets some ideas from it to test.

I've always chosen the pendant since From recommended that, just in case, even though i never bothered with it, but I got sucked into this lore and pendant sh-tuff; and started reading glynblade's secrets thread and various other sources, like "there's more to them", youtube vids, etc, thinking the ideas there are interesting, but maybe it's just a matter of putting the pieces together for a complete playthrough in a way that makes sense to some sort of rogue storyline.

( Like I always thought Kaarthe's idea/ route made more sense than Frampt's, but then when you beat Gwyn and choose the dark lord ending, nothing grand happens in my opinion, and in the dialogue you get
"...return of the dark lord yadda yadda, Let Kaarthe, AND FRAMPT, serve your highness...." . Seriously Frampt?? On the same team? Leeching? wtf is going on!?)

Anyway I liked ideas that sometimes seem random or far fetched, but when you are in the zone so to speak, any idea people have makes some sense to you, so I started going along the game trying whatever I could think of as a big picture, but got stuck in a loop.

Basically I think there was something not quite right from the get-go with information about the pendant, but can't jump to conclusions and have none yet, and don't know where exactly to proceed after this.

In a nutshell,

If Petrus kills Rhea in the Parish, we assumed that Rhea drops the pendant, and that Petrus
killed her since he drops the ivory talisman if you kill him after Rhea's been killed.

However, there is a possibility that the pendant belonged to her killer, not Rhea, since she does not drop the pendant anywhere else where she makes an appearence (if you kill her at those locations); It's not dropped in Firelink, not dropped in ToGiants, not dropped in the Archives Prison.

You could argue that she somehow picked it up just before going to the Parish, and got rid of it somehow before going to the archives prison, but how does that help us?
Did she join the forest hunters for a while, kill intruders, got a pendant, then go to for a quick stop at snuggly and traded it? Or maybe her jailers took it off her? Let her keep her talisman?

( I stopped writing after that last thought, got an idea and went on one of my chars with Rhea stranded in ToGiants. So I saved her, went to Parish, killed her there, no pendant.
So I dont think she ever had the pendant herself. Also, after saving her and talking to petrus and before going to kill her, I killed Petrus to see if he drops the pendant at that point, which he doesn't. Read on for explanation why I had to test this too )

Back to Rhea and Pendant

I was thinking that if the pendant really didn't belong to Rhea, but her assailant, she either ripped it off somehow, in like a struggle, or her killer left it there as some tradition or gesture. Those are the two things I can think of at this point, in any case I don't think it ever belonged to Rhea.

About Petrus

Earlier than this Rhea + pendant theory, I had thought - what if Petrus isn't the hand that kills Rhea, just the architect and got someone else to do it (he seems more a shifty coward than murderer), and maybe Petrus had requested whoever it was that done the deed, to bring him the ivory talisman as either proof that the deed was done, or the ivory talisamn has some value to him. (I've been running around the catacombs where the white resonance rings appear, near last necromancer and 2 archers, in full maiden set and ivory talisman trying to think of something. I know what they are meant to do, but why are they in that spot out of all places in the game? I've had a cart-wheel skelly go through the wall
in that area, like a glitch, but who knows).


Anyway if Rhea didn't have the pendant, neither did Petrus just before he was meant to kill her.

There is more to this that i have pieced together, mainly around Forest Guys and also Beatrice (yes, i know ) that might make some sense for leads to follow. But might follow up later.

Right now I cant say either theories or possibilities ( That pendant is Rhea's, or that the pendant is not Rhea's) are correct untill I find a way to verify something on either side. Either proving, or disproving something (to imply the other is right)

...cont

If this is right though, the pendant really does nothing, and more a question of who it belongs to than what it does. On the description it says it's a trinket ( like good old patches likes to say) so it could be just something of value to the group of people that carry this.

I am absolutly green and unfamiliar with the forest covenant but was wondering about one thing I know ( from other people) which is that players in this covenant get it as a reward for killing intruders. But couldn't understand why.

Then, from the Crest of Artoras and maybe some dialogue in the text dump or NPC, I remembered mention of the forest full of bandits and thieves now, hunting adventurers seeking artorias's grave. (On the crest it just says bandits, somewhere else it also says thieves - no sure if it was an NPC of cut dialogues from the text dump, prolly Oscar parts).

So if thieves did refer to forest hunters covenant, and they are actually bandits and thieves more than noble protectors of the forest, could it mean they are robbing adventures seeking the grave and looting it off them? And for the adventurers to have it, means they carry it for some purpose when seeking the grave?

I dont know who to trust in this game much, but from Shiva's dialogue I thought they could be bandits and thieves, posing the question, if some unknown person killed Rhea, was he/she part of the covenant , or adventurer's seeking the grave? Or someone else?

...cont

Part 3 Beatrice

Before ending up with the idea that maybe the pendant isn't Rhea's, as explained in the above post, I had been going around trying some disguises I could think of. Since From hinted about impersonating, and needing more than a first playthrough, I thought something ike having the maiden set and white seance ring during Rhea's events made sense, so I was showing up everywhere in full maiden set, white s. ring, ivory talisman and pendant ( still under impression it belongs not just to Rhea, but maybe it's a Ranked WoW thing, i.e priestess), to no avail.

I even stood at Undead Parish in maiden set trying to be bait, if you know what i mean; also talked to Petrus disguised as Lautrec after they met in the catacombs, maybe he'd confide something, to no avail but was getting discouraged since people mentioned Shiva reacts to a +5 chaos blade, and I thought that might take much more work if armor and all is going to make a difference depending on fort level ( my Favor set pieces were +5, but maiden +6). Also I recalled that in Demon's souls we only needed to wear a hat, not all this mumbo jumbo, at the same time realizing we haven't had anything like that in Dark souls.

Anyway at these dead ends, I left it at that, went to watch videos, smoke, bite my nails etc, and later decided to have a look at the art book that came with the game in october. Now I might be biased here, because beatrice is my favorite character in game, and my main is a sorcerer named beatrice, (even though she doesn't make much apperances, at least she doesn't try to kill you later on like everyone else), but something really stood out to me on the beatrice page in the art book. Like, with eyes wide open I thought out loud "WTF is this??".

On closer inspection I realised what was in that exactly, and started wondering what might that be and that something could have been there on that thing, but were the devs just having fun with photoshop and ruined a perfectly good picture, or saying something? ( check yer art book)

So obviously I got to thinking about Beatrice. Like she actually just shows up twice, although they are both to help you; and no other NPC ever mentions or shows ties to her or vice-versa.

But more importantly, was she just an afterthought for the devs, or is there more to her, for this particular reason mainly (which seems quite a boo-boo storywise for an afterthought imo) :

We have this great Artorias, The Abysswalker, who with his ring traversed the abyss. We venture far and wide to get this same ring and unlock the abyss, before we are even able to equip it and leap down there. And along comes beatrice, shrugs, and says "yeah let's go, no problem".

Anyway, with the art book thing, I eventualy started testing if the pendant could possibly be someone else's besides Rhea, With her catalyst description, I get the impression she is some kind of successor within a certain group, (the staff seems like it is handed down within some group), and since she walks in the abyss and was in the forest area first, I thought maybe she had some ties to Artorias (friendly or not), and something peculiar about her witch set some might have noticed, makes me wonder if she is an afterthought or not.

If like me, you have about every armor set in the game on your main, you notice that every set is organised with Head, Chest, Hands, Legs; Head Chest,Hands,Legs, over and over. My witch set ( and probably everyone elses) has the Witch Hat separte from the rest of the set. I have the Witch Hat, Full Dusk Set, then rest of the witch set.

Long, but that's all from me. I had to explain as much as I can incase it can spark something in someone, but not give the impression I have some conclusion or lucky guesses. Off to mindless hacking and slashing, might try something else as i go along casual before pc version is out and prolly hackerered, but it's out there.

Could you explian the special event in demon souls that requires you to equip a hat ?

- ive also thought that somethin was differet about the witch hat being seperate from fhe rest of the armor set in the inventory.

There's a prison tower in Demon's where there's no stairs to an NPC unless you wear the official's hat. The NPC is protected by an official so if you wear the hat he lowers the stairs for you.

baby_beavis......what did From say about impersonating regarding Dark Souls? I haven't seen anything in articles, interviews etc.

Also, regarding the pendant and not "belonging" to Rhea I don't know how much of the Archives you've read but there's a painting in Anor Londo you might want to look at. It features a young person (ambiguous gender) who is wearing the pendant. My current belief is that it's Gwyndolin as a young boy.

@ Shabbalaba

Yeah, like skarekrow said, but here's another wierd thing i'll add to that. Like skare said, in demon's souls, the guy you kill for the hat is called a Fat Minister (if you haven't played Demon's, and there are a few, not just one. Mobs not NPC). You put the hat on as a disguise next to another Fat Minister who lowers some steps, and all in all you free a spell trainer right there, WHO IS A WITCH!!!, called Yuria if I remember correctly ( no not yulia the barrel). Now in the Dark souls art book where beatrice "THE WITCH" is, the opposite picture is, low and behold, a Fat Minister, who we haven't seen in Dark Souls. If you dont have the art book, you can have a look on youtube. There are some showing the actual book and pages.

@skarekrow

I've read quite a bit all over the place when I was sick, as well as lore videos on youtube, and random threads, but pretty much glynphblade's secret thread thoroughly, post by post ( because it had most tests done besides thoeries). So I can't recall exactly where that was quoted at the moment, I'll have to back track. But it was literally just a one liner like "Try role playing and/or impersonating"; and I am sure it was from an interview. EpicNameBro on youtube had a video when the new art book came out in japan (march or april) and could be that, but i think i read it, not video, like IGN or game blog.

As to the statue, no I'm not aware, but thanks, digging into that right now. Thanks

P.S. @skarekrow with all the stuff I read, my favorite thread, which got my doing tests and making sense of WoW and pendant, was this

https://soulswiki.forumotion.com/t1299-rhea-idea-possible-pendant-connected#18734

I just realised it was your post.

Lol I read that thread, must have missed it. Keep trying anything you can think of. People will tell you there's nothing left but I discovered the painting with the pendant long after the game was out, ublug discovered the invisible statue and the ceaseless discharge secret relatively recently.

I just went to anor londo looking for the painting, not sure if you meant that one with a young girl in red dress, looks like she has a big arse pendant there? If so, and I need a second opinion here, I'm tired, and cant make much of what is in her right hand, but it looks alot like what beatrice has in the art book, and similar to what is in the hands of the painting next to that one. Acidic_cook has a picture in his "Search for lore page", 2nd from last page, and refers to it as a catalyst or talisman, but i had thought it was a dagger. (Beatrice holds catalyst and cracked round shield in game, but catalyst and dagger thing in art book). Snowballing - if it was her, does she have a connection with anor londo family? Gwyn sibling or descentant? I may be seeing things though at this hour.

Yeah, like you said. I know "there's nothing left", but why are there still unanswered questions, right? From the tests I posted above, I have a strong feeling the pendant isn't rhea's, and even if it's just a possibity, it wasn't taken into consideration much in the searches since October. So what does that say about all theories? Re-evalutate at least.

Anyway, I'm basically interested in the lore just enough to make even minor connections and figure out who I'm gonna go stab, slash or burn in the game for some leads; meaning I usually grab a sword to test thoeries and I am trying to figure out who's next on my hitlist.

This thread is like my white soapstone.

Off to bed.

skarekrow, can tell you something about your thread I mentioned above tomorrow, to explain how it evolved into what I first posted here. It might give you or others an idea, who knows. gn.

Night. I forgot about that thread mostly. First jab at lore pretty much. can't wait to hear more.

Spoiler:

Hey guys - just seen your responses now.

Thanks for the info regarding the fat minister (i have demon souls - just have been finishing dark souls platinum trophy before i venture over to demons)

I do have the collectors edition of dark souls, so i see exactly what you mean. Nice connection. I also have the dark souls design works import (awesome book btw)

Back to the topic - what about the maidens set description - it says something in regards to this is not for battle, wear this helm + server weapon + all covenants max + gesture at a specific position + pendant (couldnt resist) = Epic Secret yet to be discovered?!?....

From the maiden set, the part that says something like it's "formal attire, worn regardless of rank" made me wear it while talking to WoW NPCs. You know, maybe they accept me as a Thoroulander and take me to the secret batcave or something.

But what you said is something I stopped thinking about, because there are way too many locations, styles (armor, equipement, etc) and conditions to try and meet than is humanly possible to test. And never really gave the server a second thought tbh.

My main thought is that you need to figure out the WoW plot, scheme or conspiracy. At least hypothetical ideas that you can actually test in-game. I side with the concept that WoW is an evil / sinister cult of some sorts, at least where we undead/humas are conserned; and with that, I can't understand why Rhea is killed or assassinated exactly. Greed, envy? To stop her from accomplishing her mission or because she might have become wise to their scheme? Or From devs made everyone expendable just coz they could. My head hurts!

Anyway, 3 more curious things in the art book I find, if you are interested, besides beatrice page.

1 - Nito , page split in two, one showing a blue skeleton, one showing a red skeleton (darkmoon/darkwraith ? Had some thoughts on that)

2 - Page with 3 trees - cant spot difference between them. Why 3?

3 - The Frog-rays - Like beatrice page. Fun with photoshop? Or does that look like it's related to the ring of evil eye?

1) Nito's pictures show his true self. You'll notice one has a missing skeleton in the middle. that skeleeton is Nito.

DoughGuy wrote:1) Nito's pictures show his true self. You'll notice one has a missing skeleton in the middle. that skeleeton is Nito.

Ah, I get you. I'd thought either there's no skeleton there, or it's just the skull thats visible.

From the above posts, I've had a major brainstorm, or fits, but probably 8 months too late, and I'm not searching much anymore, just normal gameplay. Anyway, what if, if there was anything to discover, it was in a Gravelord affected world, like the Pure Black World Tendency of Demon's? Like the Pure Black World Events.

That would have been nuts and fun to try, like if you had a large ammount of players registered, half as servants and half as hosts and phantoms, map per map; not invading the servants so you had that world to explore. Say 20 servants infect the burg first, so its 20 x 3 infections, someone of the others is bound to get infected, sends a message in chat, summons 2 for jolly-co, but explores as usual. Mass Gravelord for PvE.

I've done infections a few times, just to give demon's fans a thrill, untill some d.b comes along with his lightning and ****.

Oddly enough, I was looking at the pendant earlier. And I know it was a glitch but it was just making me think. It had the same description as the Sunlight Medals you get from Solaire.

But then I thought about something. Solaire's Sunlight Medals and his armor/shield all have that sun on it. And that sun is supposed to be the symbol of the God of War. I've been thinking, he got his deity status removed for some reason right? Wouldn't it stand to reason that he maybe lost his memories as a deity?

Yes, I'm suggesting that Solaire is the God of War.

I'm still perturbed that if you pick no gift, the description text says: 'No sign of a gift' instead of being blank. It's sounds like it's supposed to be sarcastic. No sign of a gift *winkwink*... But then again, it all sounds suspicious if you look at it long enough. The other day, I sat and tried to decipher the words on Artorias' supposed tombstone for an hour.. I can clearly see type under some of it. I see 'Will', or 'Like', 'Get', and 'Hat' - along with a stray letter or two. In Arial Font no less, then the devs covered over it to mess with me. :x

Honestly, I think everyone is looking too much into the Pendant. It's an item that has no use, and for some reason so many people are just adamant that it must be used for something.

I think it really is what it says it is. It's a memento, and I think From simply decided to call it a good item for one reason. If you use it, you're left without all of the other items. No Black Firebombs for the Asylum Demon, no Master Key (Unless you're a thief) no Goddess Blessing, etc. It effectively makes the game harder if you choose the pendant. That in itself makes you overcome the difficulty with more of your own skill. That is a better gift than any other the others.

Except maybe the Master Key xD.

About8547Souls wrote:
Except maybe the Master Key xD.

Dude, I think that is a bit of a contradiction. And why not recommend the none?

I think there is something to the pendant, but I'm starting to think that everyone at From is a morning person. *** damn it!

It might be easier to buy some tickets to japan, and pack some crocodile clips and leads.

I'm of the opinion that there a very real reason to look for a "secret" to the pendant. However, I'm not wholly convinced it has to be a mechanical secret. For example: it doesn't have to be use x under y circumstances and the pendant unlocks z

The secret could be lore related in which case we likely have a good start on it's meaning. I said this awhile ago (and am biased since it was my discovery) but the Gwyndolin painting in Anor Londo could be a major key. Feel free to disagree but here's my thoughts and it makes a good "for instance."

The director said most players were unlikely to discover it's meaning/use on the first playthrough. Not that they couldn't, but they likely wouldn't. Going to my example, on my first playthrough I barely recognized there were paintings in the bedroom. Something about Silver Knights stabbing me for half my life made me focus on them a tad more. On NG+ I was whipping out the old binoculars left and right trying to find cool stuff. Statistically speaking I was far more likely to find "secrets" on this playthrough since I no longer had the pervasive fear of exploring.

@About8547Souls

Sorry if I didn't explain properly, had gone to bed already while I was replying. The thing is, you're right about reading too much into things to some extend, because the reason I posted this thread was because I had either not bothered with the pendant secrets, or when I did I just took everything in game at face value; however I got stuck in a loop and that's when I got sucked into these lore things - mainly to figure out the plot, and get a general idea of what to test in game.

I don't know if you read the thread, but like skarekrow said in that last post, I dont think the pendant does anything mechanical, but I don't make characters every other week, I have a main, so I wasn't going to not choose the pendant then regret it like after 10+ playthroughs and endless hours of work, because someone figures out you actually had to choose it as a gift. My point is that I do have the same view as you about reading too much into things, but I cannot exclude what other people have figured out about lore as possibilities.

@Scirvir - lol ol faceplant. never noticed that thing about no gift discription and went to have a look. The next day had quelana first encounter, "I don't have much visitors.. yadda yadda...chosen undead.... u have a gift..". faceplant. I dont know if you were joking about the tombstone writing though.

skarekrow, do you think it's possible that Sif actually IS Artorias?

You know - Artorias was known as the wolf, SIF's soul makes Artorias weapons, not shield of the hairy wolf shields and such, and the fact that HE drops the ring and soul himself, not found in a chest or on a corpse he guards.

Just because I've always wondered why, when fighting him and he's down to low health, he starts limping, tripping and also stumbles over himself when he does a sweep attack. I always wondered if that suggests doing something particular during that. I dunno, like offer pendant, his soul back, prayer, dark hand, dung pies, etc. I have to wait to fight him again though.

P.S. I mentioned offer pendant because of that thing I mentioned in thread, dunno if you read it about the Forest Hunters Covenant possibly being bandits and thieves, and the pendant belongs to adventurers seeking the grave. I just noticed that when a forest hunter kills a target, it actually says "pillaged". Not sure if S. of Reprisal is same, checking..

Edit - S.Of Reprisal doesn't.

There's been a TON of lore hunting regarding Artorias so there should be lengthy discussions about Forest Hunters possible connections to Artorias. My personal belief (Alvina was friends with Artorias and Sif, gate is Artorias crest sealed, grave is in the woods, Alvina is a lot more powerful than a first glance suggests) is that the forest and the covenant are protecting the final resting place/memory and quest of Artorias. Alvina, being a friend of Artorias should know something about him but acts like she doesn't. She's trying to throw anyone in the forest off his trail since MOST people are in Lordran for less than honorable reasons. The covenant attracts scoundrels and adventurers alike since it promises loot and the nobility of protecting the ONLY place with real life in Lordran. Everywhere else is corrupted beyond repair seemingly while the forest is pristine. Notice that the covenant has attracted: Two knights, a thief/assassin, a sorcerer, a cleric, an archer and a less specific warrior. That doesn't even include Shiva and the Ninja mind you. The covenant is a lure for everyone. Also think that you either a) Join them or b) go through the gauntlet of them (basically join us or die). The only way to Artorias is by being keen and strong enough to avoid both sides of the coin. You can't get lured into the covenant too deeply and you have to get through dangerous obstacles. Now why should they go to all this trouble for basically a loop? The easiest route of protection is to destroy the crest. Instead, you have to face this insanity to even get near the grave. The likely answer is that, while the grave does need protecting, the REAL quest is to find a successor. Notice Alvina tells you she expects big things from you then never actually delivers a significant prize for it. She expects you to get through the nonsense is my belief.

On to Sif. Firstly, Sif is almost certainly female. While this doesn't mean she can't be a reincarnation of Artorias, it's a good start to cast doubt. If Artorias' being carries on in a form in which the soul generates his equipment, it might be expected that the alteration would not be so drastic. Not saying a female can't be as powerful as he was (or more so) but that theory means that his being changed dramatically while the soul didn't. Kind of an anomaly but again, possible. Next point though is the uncursed version of the sword. Sif's soul states she "inherited" the divine sword. It implies that possession was transferred to a new being. Continuing on, what is Sif actually protecting? The easy answer is the grave. However, in my first time through I deliberately avoided the sword. Big open area? Giant Sword? That's probably going to trigger something and I won't be happy at first. So I explored the arena first. You can walk right up to the grave from the reverse side and grab Ciaran's ring and touch the grave without Sif attacking you. So? Sif doesn't guard the grave and probably couldn't care less about Ciaran. Go near the SWORD however and suddenly you're in trouble. Why is that more important to Sif? The sword is hers, the grave is her friend's. A guardian should protect others before their own property right? Maybe she does. In lore, especially Japanese lore, weapons and equipment are more than steel. In the case of swords, a small piece of the creator's soul is embedded in the tool (see Emergence's thread and my explanation of the difference between Masamune and Muramasa for a better description). When the sword is passed to it's owner, it becomes an extension of themselves. In other words, while the sword is now Sif's, it is and always will be a piece of Artorias. Further evidence occurs when Sif is destroyed. Have you ever noticed the sword doesn't fall at her feet? It vanishes too. So......

The sword is divine based on the smith who made it likely. It belonged to Artorias and therefore becomes part of him. It is then passed to Sif meaning it also is part of her. We acquire the Soul of Sif which makes the Artorias gear. I believe that their souls are linked by the mutual possession of a fundamental piece of Artorias. As both Sif and the sword vanish, my belief is that Sif's soul is special enough to become an inventory item but the sword's soul being released is what turns it into Artorias gear. The symbolism of how each sword is made provides further evidence. The cursed version comes from a complete weapon. This is considered the lesser or less Artoriasy sword so why is it the easier one to make (most people upgrade a usable weapon rather than broken). If the original sword was passed to Sif, it stands to reason that he had the cursed version in hand or was soon to get it meaning whatever covenant he made was already done or his mind was made up on the subject. So while the divine sword is passed to Sif, it was still an extension of Artorias' soul, which was now the "cursed" Artorias. The "broken" or past Artorias is further removed when the sword was passed to Sif and is brought out by attaching the soul to a broken weapon.

Regarding the limping, I always interpreted it as a device to demonstrate the noble nature of the wolf and her determination.



EDIT: Yes....this is in fact the short version of things.....if you include the discussion points from others (since this is only my view) you'll be here awhile.

No joke - I can see typed words/letters in the grave. Next time you're headed through - bring the sunlight maggot and a bow, or binoculars..Not right up tight to it, but a couple steps back is where they're most clear. I just gave it a passing look, but caught the word 'GET' five rows down on the left side, and wound up sitting in front of the tombstone and 10 inches away from my TV doing my best Sherlock Holmes impression. 'Will' or 'Like' is on the second row down. The one under that may have 'US' in it. For awhile, I thought it was going to tell me to 'Like' them on facebook. It's kinda like it was there to begin with, and they slapped jibberish and sword marks over the top of it to hide it. Needless to say, it lead nowhere, and the 20 times the autosave flame popped up, I was all like, "Hoo Hoo, here we go! I'm gonna get the secret 'UFO' ending! Maybe there's more, but it gets harder to see towards the bottom where it's a mess with markings, but if I sit there for another hour, my eyes will melt out of my head.

i couldn't make anything out, maybe will try with the maggot.

Yeah, I think the secret to this game is staying in that cell you start off in. look at all the anguish you bring about.storywise, deaths, eyes hurt... You get the secret ending if u toss the key back up to oscar, and shrug "nah. i'm good thanks"

LOL. Were it so easy.